Belaying Second in Guide mode - right or left?

I want to take a moment of silence so we can all appreciate Joe as he has done as is still doing what none of us ever will be able to do....climb 5.11+ PG13 and rock short shorts.

What no sub 50 year old climber can do! Healy on some super cutting edge shit.

Healyje wrote: Absolutely, and part of that 'agenda' is to attempt to get people to question the root assumptions in the face of unquestioned 'monkey-see/monkey-do' device adoption that is sold on the basis of convenience and 'safety'.

Can you open your mind to the possibility that there are climbers who have questioned it, analyzed it, weighed the pros and cons, and come to a different conclusion than you? Maybe it's not monkey see/monkey do, but climber see/consider/research/analyze?
No one is criticizing you for deciding this type of belay isn't for you, (just for your heavy-handed assertion that your opinion is an absolute fact). Why must you criticize others for having a different belay preference than yourself?

Regarding thread drift - I think the reason only a few posts were related to the OP's original question is because that's all it took to answer the question. Sometimes other topics arise and tangents are followed. That's how conversation works, I don't think we need to delete everything as though no conversation is valid unless it strictly follows the original topic.

Em Cos wrote: Can you open your mind to the possibility that there are climbers who have questioned it, analyzed it, weighed the pros and cons, and come to a different conclusion than you? Maybe it's not monkey see/monkey do, but climber see/consider/research/analyze? No one is criticizing you for deciding this type of belay isn't for you, (just for your heavy-handed assertion that your opinion is an absolute fact). Why must you criticize others for having a different belay preference than yourself?

SPOT ON

Em Cos wrote:Can you open your mind to the possibility that there are climbers who have questioned it, analyzed it, weighed the pros and cons, and come to a different conclusion than you? Maybe it's not monkey see/monkey do, but climber see/consider/research/analyze?

If I thought or believed that were the case I wouldn't say a peep.

Em Cos wrote:Why must you criticize others for having a different belay preference than yourself?

Because it isn't simply a matter of preference between devices. There are behavioral effects associated with device use and some of those are quite subtle if not insidious and self-reinforcing in some cases. Again, most of the accidents and deaths occur from the same inane reasons over and over and if you look beyond the immediate cause you usually find the underlying issue was inattention and distraction from the primary task at hand.

So whenever the use of a device 'frees' your attention from the deliberate task at hand it can have not just immediate potential consequences, but also breed much more subtle long-term behavioral tendencies around inattention and distraction. And that doesn't even cover the socio / cultural, if not viral, spread of the effect now that climbing is so much more of a social activity with lots of belayers often in close proximity with all the 'free' time to kill / occupy (not to even talk about the compounding effects of today's phones further driving distracted behavioral tendencies).

The fact it's portrayed as just a 'preference' where the choices are 'all good' is a part of the problem and what makes it look like oblivious herd mentality from where I sit. But hey, the point has been made and you can have your thread back.

Healyje wrote: So whenever the use of a device 'frees' your attention from the deliberate task at hand it can have not just immediate potential consequences, but also breed much more subtle long-term behavioral tendencies around inattention and distraction.

Well, that's it - I'm disabling the cruise control on my car. I'm sure it will make me a safer, better driver.

Thanks

In reading this thread, there appears to be a divide based on age as to whether or not to use guide-mode for belay. As one of the wise (cranky?) old men, I agree with Healyje . But there may be hope for the future. A couple of years ago, I was climbing with a strong, young climber who had lots of gym/sport background but was just learning traditional climbing. After he followed a pitch, he complimented me on how just right the belay felt. I explained that was because I wasn’t using guide mode. So we older climbers should keep the faith. To strengthen us in our resolve, I have written a hymn.

Upward Older Climbers

Upward, older climbers, ascending as of yore
With the plate of Sticht keeping us from gore
Healyje the traditional climber leads against the foe
Up the cliff, see him protection sow

Refrain:
Upward, older climbers, ascending as of yore
With the plate of Sticht keeping us from gore

At sight of our ascent, sport climbers doth flee;
On then traditionalists, on to summitry.
Top ropers quiver, as trad climbers go high
And degenerate sporters can only sadly sigh.
Refrain.

Like a mighty expedition move the tradders with might
Belaying from harnesses with no guide mode in sight.
We are not divided, all one body we,
And treat degenerate sporters with our charity.
Refrain

Edit: In response to a question, it is sung to the tune of Onward Christian Soldiers-- youtube.com/watch?v=mG78M7g…

rob.calm wrote: After he followed a pitch, he complimented me on how just right the belay felt. I explained that was because I wasn’t using guide mode.

Its not hard at all to provide a great belay with guide. Actually It's quite easy.

Healyje wrote: If I thought or believed that were the case I wouldn't say a peep.

That's why it would require an open mind - it would require you to be open to an idea that is different from the one you already hold. If you are only "open-minded" to things you already think and believe, then it's not really open mindedness at all.

It seems that being open to a different idea is too far outside your comfort zone, and that's ok. You continue to belay off the harness, others will continue to belay with a variety of methods to suit a variety of situations, and everyone will gravitate to the climbing partners that are on the same page as themselves.

Are we still yapping about sharks???

One does wonder why we arent all out climbing ... Or doing actual testing of the many ways to die on da deadlay autoblock

Hmmmm

;)

Sorry, grammar alert, but this is simple. Okay, eli poss, travdad, and other MPers who continually make this mistake, there is a big difference between breaking a rope and braking a rope. If you've got a "break side" to your belay, things have already gone downhill.

if u understand wut they ment then does it rly matter? Nope!

Joel Allen wrote:if u understand wut they ment then does it rly matter? Nope!

Well played, sir, but yes it does. There's a difference between being understood and easily understood, and words mean things.

This is Mountain Project and we don't use grammar here!

;)

rob.calm wrote: To strengthen us in our resolve, I have written a hymn.

haha hahah. This is awesome! I almost cried.

What is the opinion of the cranky old men on using the munter? I'll leave the extra biner out of it if it makes you upset.

Muntahs kill gumbayz ....

climbing.com/skill/auto-blo…

;)

Well I'm old but not cranky, as my essay would reveal if anyone could be bothered to read it. I love rob.com's hymn, but I own a Reverso, an Alpine Up, and a DMM Pivot (as well as a whole bunch of older gadgets) and use all of them in guide mode on occasion. But I've worked out how to belay with them so as not to be continually dragging my second upwards (and have learned something from Bearbreeder in this thread to make that process even better), I'm sensitive to the range of situations in which guide mode is inappropriate or downright bad, and I don't indulge in non-belaying distractions when using it.

I use guide mode primarily because, in my dotage, back problems that are now forty-five years old make even the modern harness belay sometimes uncomfortable, and being able to stand erect and manage the belay has some attraction. I don't use guide mode that much, so I'm not subject to the elbow tendonitis a number of guides have gotten from hauling ropes through a guide plate. (Yeah, we didn't mention that, did we?)

Turning to the Munter hitch, I used it for a few years. Nothing is faster and easier, and it's braking power exceeds that of the various plates. People say that it kinks the rope, but I haven't found this to be any more significant than some of the kinking I've seen from other devices. It is used quite a bit to belay directly off bolted anchors in Germany and Italy, which I don't think would be the case if it was all that serious a kinker. It is important to have a pear-shaped Munter biner; less symmetric designs impede the smooth flipping of the knot.

When I was using the Munter hitch for all belays, we needed something else for double-strand rappelling. The gold standard at the time was the carabiner brake rappel. When the tubes came out and offered belaying and rappelling, I stopped using the Munter.

Whether or not you use it for ordinary belaying, the Munter---and the Munter Mule---are both essential climbing knots that no one should leave home without knowing.

eli poss wrote:This is Mountain Project and we don't use grammar here!

Hah! I think that's true of the internet in general. Every now and then I let it get my knickers in a twist.

Use one of these and you wont get elbow tendonitis

We used them for ~20 belays on the deadly autobloc the last 2 dayz

No tendonitis !!!

Smooth as buttah !!!

;)