Mountain Project Logo

Belaying Second in Guide mode - right or left?

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
Ted Pinson wrote: That's actually a great idea. I do agree that lowering in guide mode (aside from rotating the binder if you're just inching a few feet) is dangerous, largely because it's so rare that people have to do it that I'd venture a guess that most accidents are caused by not knowing exactly how to safely disengage the autoblock. Sorry for the late stream of posts...was doing this "climbing" thing yesterday. :p
The method shown in the video requires that the follower take his weight off the road momentarily. This is not always possible. So that method falls short.

Instead put the brake strand onto a munter then attach a friction hitch to the followers rope, use the ratchet method to take the weight off the device and onto the friction hitch, then remove the device then lower on the munter.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
bearbreeder wrote: Btw ... - there is an easy way to feed out slack in guide mode with the atc guide if the climber isn't weighting the rope .... With the brake hand still on the rope
That would be good information to post!

bearbreeder wrote: - has anyone actually tested the dreaded "diagonal or horinzontal" autoblock belay here? ... I have there's certain cases in which it fails and others where it doesn't .... I suggest and going out to test it yourselves with both one and two seconds (backed up of course)
Again, specific observations you have made have would be great to hear about.
Leslie H · · Keystone · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 415

Yeah, there clearly must be some other reason why someone is being dropped by a belayer using a grigri every 15 minutes, 24x7 somewhere around the planet these days. And let's at least be honest, there's a grigri on every harness not because it's a great belay device, but because it's a great hanging device.</quote
People hang on atc's as well as on gri's. But on a multi pitch climb I'd prefer to be brought up on a device that is auto locking. Not because I expect my belayer to be " lazy" but because I like the added safety of knowing if he or she is somehow unable to belay I will not fall to my death! I still do not understand how you actually keep yourself safe if you distrust anchors so much?? And how do you rap? Or are all your descents walk offs ?

tradvlad · · SLC, UT · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 5
rgold wrote: That would be good information to post!
Maybe bearbreeder has a different technique, but this is what I do.

I do a few wraps with the brake strand around my break hand (1 or 2 is enough). I make sure I leave slack between the wraps around my hand and the belay plate, 1 or 2 feet, or I try to estimate how much slack my climber needs to down climb or do whatever he/she needs to do. I use my brake hand to lift up the device, and my other hand to feed out slack. Break hand never leaves the rope.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
rgold wrote:...so I've found it surprising that they have caught on they way they have.
It has nothing to do with belaying and everything to do with hanging and being abled to do something other than belaying. The former is just a matter of what 'climbing' has become and is these days, the latter just inanely stupid in normal multipitch trad.

patto wrote:Guide mode can help you move fast and get up the route. And of course I'm talking about climbing long multi pitch routes
There is nothing whatsoever about guide mode which will help you move any faster than just belaying off your harness. If you think there is then you're doing something seriously wrong.

T Roper wrote: BITD WE WERE JUST FINE WITH A GOOD STANCE AND AN OLD FASIONED HIP BELAY!!!
Well, having climbed extensively on hard multipitch trad with stance-oriented hip belays and held endless long falls in the process I'd say you have no idea exactly how true that is. Still hip belay and still teach kids to hip belay. Done by someone who actually knows what the fuck they're doing (rare even bitd) with a real hip belay and not the rope around their waist it's as truck as belaying with any device and I take lead falls on to them when teaching it.

Leslie McG wrote:But on a multi pitch climb I'd prefer to be brought up on a device that is auto locking. Not because I expect my belayer to be " lazy" but because I like the added safety of knowing if he or she is somehow unable to belay I will not fall to my death!
To relinquish pretty much all the nuance that comes from belaying off the harness because of the chance chance something may incapacitate your belayer is a way bad trade-off in my opinion. And for what? The odds are better you'll get hit by lightning or attacked by a shark. The odds are infinitely higher that you'll be hurt or killed by an inattentive or distracted belayer using any device.

Leslie McG wrote:I still do not understand how you actually keep yourself safe if you distrust anchors so much?? And how do you rap? Or are all your descents walk offs ?
In a word: stancing. And at this point it's beyond a lost art. Like hip belaying, people today think it's inconceivable and couldn't possibly be effective. When putting up hard FAs with a non-kermantle rope and with only a set of hexes and nuts, you often ended up short on pieces at a belay - like one, two or even none. You didn't necessarily trust an anchor unless it was obviously truck. So I and anyone with half a brain learned to stance and not weight the anchor on non-hanging belays and still don't today in most circumstances. And again have held tons of lead falls without ever weighting the anchor as a result. But again, basically a lost art.

As for rapping: carefully and gingerly. Three of us had to do it a couple of years ago in Vegas rapping down the face of Mt. Charleston via a descent with no anchors on shrubberies with essentially no gear / slings and someone injured (another quirky FA story altogether that I got 'roped' into...).

tradvlad wrote:Maybe bearbreeder has a different technique, but this is what I do. I do a few wraps with the brake strand around my break hand (1 or 2 is enough). I make sure I leave slack between the wraps around my hand and the belay plate, 1 or 2 feet, or I try to estimate how much slack my climber needs to down climb or do whatever he/she needs to do. I use my brake hand to lift up the device, and my other hand to feed out slack. Break hand never leaves the rope.
The minute you say 'estimate' you know the technique basically is worthless in feeding slack in realtime to a downclimbing partner, especially an out-of-sight one. The bottom line again is guide mode is all about hanging - can't do a move? Hang and crank, hang and crank. Might as well be a winch. You can't effectively let a second work a pitch in the normal sense of the word.
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
bearbreeder wrote: - has anyone actually tested the dreaded "diagonal or horinzontal" autoblock belay here? ... I have theres certain cases in which it fails and otherea where it doesnt .... I suggest and going out to test it youselves with both one and two seconds (backed up of course)
Only once. Second dropped when third fell. I had placed a backup knot as stated by instructions, hence all ok. Without the knot it might had be fatal.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

I´m with Joe on this to a considerable extent. I don´t want to be some inconvenience he can just drag up while he´s eating, reading porn or texting his buddies.
The biggest issue on trad routes is that climbers may build the belay to suit using a device in guide mode NOT the best or most convenient belay.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
Healyje wrote: I lament for the future.
Isn't that entirely your thing?
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
Healyje wrote: Hell, there's probably going on that many climbing gyms worldwide at this point given even Moldova and Malta have three apiece. But conservatively say there's half that number. Now add every sport crag in the world - easily thousands if not tens of thousands I'd guess. One drop per year at each and you'd have way, way over 5k climbers being dropped per year. How many gyms and sport venues do you suppose go a year without anyone at all being dropped? World-wide Rock Climbing Gym & Artificial Wall Listing
Choosing a number, cutting it in half, and calling it "conservative" doesn't get you an accurate statistic. Half of a made up number is still a made up number. I do not know the average number of dropped climbers/year in climbing gyms, and it seems neither do you. Anecdotally, I know of at least several that have not had any dropped climbers at all in several years, but I certainly can't extrapolate any meaningful data from that.

Healyje wrote: To relinquish pretty much all the nuance that comes from belaying off the harness because of the chance chance something may incapacitate your belayer is a way bad trade-off in my opinion. And for what? The odds are better you'll get hit by lightning or attacked by a shark. The odds are infinitely higher that you'll be hurt or killed by an inattentive or distracted belayer using any device.
Do you actually know the respective odds of these various occurrences? Look, it's clear you're not a fan of being belayed in guide mode, and you should absolutely agree with your partners never to use it if it's important to you. There are pros and cons to the method, and for you the pros do not outweigh the cons. I think it would be better to just share your opinion and the reasons why rather than rail against anyone who has a different opinion and whose cost/benefit analysis reaches a different conclusion. You lose ground on your argument though when you invent statistics and probabilities to support your viewpoint.
mediocre · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 0
To relinquish pretty much all the nuance that comes from belaying off the harness because of the chance chance something may incapacitate your belayer is a way bad trade-off in my opinion. And for what? The odds are better you'll get hit by lightning or attacked by a shark. The odds are infinitely higher that you'll be hurt or killed by an inattentive or distracted belayer using any device.

If I am ever attacked by a shark while belaying I'll know I really fucked up somewhere.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Em Cos wrote: Choosing a number, cutting it in half, and calling it "conservative" doesn't get you an accurate statistic. Half of a made up number is still a made up number.
I cited a reference with the worldwide gym directory link. Gave up counting at about 500 and I wasn't even through a quarter of the US let alone the rest of the world.

Em Cos wrote: Choosing a number, cutting it in half, and calling it "conservative" doesn't get you an accurate statistic. Half of a made up number is still a made up number. I do not know the average number of dropped climbers/year in climbing gyms, and it seems neither do you. Anecdotally, I know of at least several that have not had any dropped climbers at all in several years, but I certainly can't extrapolate any meaningful data from that. Do you actually know the respective odds of these various occurrences? Look, it's clear you're not a fan of being belayed in guide mode, and you should absolutely agree with your partners never to use it if it's important to you. There are pros and cons to the method, and for you the pros do not outweigh the cons. I think it would be better to just share your opinion and the reasons why rather than rail against anyone who has a different opinion and whose cost/benefit analysis reaches a different conclusion. You lose ground on your argument though when you invent statistics and probabilities to support your viewpoint.
Not really inventing them. There's easily 2500 gyms if not double that and easily 5000 if not 10k or 15k sport areas world wide. Only a fraction of the total would need to experience a gridrop of any kind to roll up to 5k.

Again, bottom line on autoblocks and guide mode is not about belaying, it's about the redefinition of 'climbing' to mean hanging your way and, in the case of guide mode, doing shit other than belaying. Again, both devices breed inattention and distraction and even if that doesn't happen to kill or injure you outright, the corrosive affect of it on your mindset can definitely get you killed in any number of other ways while climbing.
Kedron Silsbee · · El Paso · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 0
Healyje wrote: Again, bottom line on autoblocks and guide mode is not about belaying, it's about the redefinition of 'climbing' to mean hanging your way and, in the case of guide mode, doing shit other than belaying. .
OK, we get it - it's hard to downclimb when you're belayed in guide mode. Nobody disputes this point. That matters to some people in some situations. It apparently matters a lot to you all the time, which is fine - tell your partners you'd prefer them to belay you off their harness. If you really think the way you get belayed "redefines" climbing, you must have a very narrow definition of climbing.
England · · Colorado Springs · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 270

Ok time to break the silence. Ted you have no need to be climbing....especially if you need to ask these questions..please go home and ride your bike/skateboard

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Kedron Silsbee wrote: OK, we get it - it's hard to downclimb when you're belayed in guide mode. Nobody disputes this point. That matters to some people in some situations. It apparently matters a lot to you all the time, which is fine - tell your partners you'd prefer them to belay you off their harness. If you really think the way you get belayed "redefines" climbing, you must have a very narrow definition of climbing.
Well, in a nutshell, I'd say off-hand that 'climbing' for the majority of today's climbers means 'hang, hang, hang, hang, redpoint, next'. And if you think the grigri zoomed to popularity because it's a great or 'safer' belay device as opposed to being a great hanging device you're either in denial or delusional. The guide mode is just more of the same.
Kedron Silsbee · · El Paso · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 0

I would think most of the "hang hang hang redpoint next" crowd would have little use for an ATC guide or similar device, as most sport-climbing in the US is less than 1/2 ropelength, so people mostly don't belay from the top. But suppose I like hanging - should I not at least have a convenient device for it and know how to use it well?

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Kedron Silsbee wrote:I would think most of the "hang hang hang redpoint next" crowd would have little use for an ATC guide or similar device, as most sport-climbing in the US is less than 1/2 ropelength, so people mostly don't belay from the top. But suppose I like hanging - should I not at least have a convenient device for it and know how to use it well?
People can climb how they will, but they should also be aware of the extended consequences of the use of devices which breed unwarranted dependency and inattentiveness. Unfortunately they typically are not and the result over time is lots of unnecessary injuries and deaths.
Kedron Silsbee · · El Paso · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 0
Healyje wrote: People can climb how they will, but they should also be aware of the extended consequences of the use of devices which breed unwarranted dependency and inattentiveness.
Absolutely - no argument there. But they should also be aware of the positive sides of some modern devices and make an informed choice as to which tools to use in which situations.
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
Healyje wrote: I cited a reference with the worldwide gym directory link. Gave up counting at about 500 and I wasn't even through a quarter of the US let alone the rest of the world. Not really inventing them. There's easily 2500 gyms if not double that and easily 5000 if not 10k or 15k sport areas world wide. Only a fraction of the total would need to experience a gridrop of any kind to roll up to 5k. Again, bottom line on autoblocks and guide mode is not about belaying, it's about the redefinition of 'climbing' to mean hanging your way and, in the case of guide mode, doing shit other than belaying. Again, both devices breed inattention and distraction and even if that doesn't happen to kill or injure you outright, the corrosive affect of it on your mindset can definitely get you killed in any number of other ways while climbing.
Yes but the reference you cited was a list of gyms. Even if you hadn't given up counting, what you get from that reference you cited is the number of gyms worldwide, which tells you nothing about how often climbers are dropped in gyms or whether the reason they are dropped is inattentive belaying as a direct result of using a grigri. The number of dropped climbers is still a number you made up based on the assumption that one per year is dropped in every gym in the world. That may be correct, it may not - but that information is NOT in the reference you cited.

Some climbers might use ATCs in guide mode because they prefer to hang their way up a climb, and if so clearly that's how they prefer to climb. Many climbers use ATCs in guide mode and do not hang their way up a climb, but just climb normally. It is possible, as has been mentioned, to give an attentive belay with an ATC in guide mode. I think it is a more appropriate belay method, not when you expect to fall and hang a lot, but rather on easy terrain where you are unlikely to fall and need to be lowered or need to downclimb much to puzzle out the route.

Any belayer can give a poor, inattentive belay with any belay device. I choose not to climb with inattentive belayers, you choose to forego a specific device/belay method. Both are fine choices. But please don't assume that everyone who ever uses this method a. is inattentive and lazy b. gives a terrible belay c. does not know how to lower safely when needed and d. is a dropped-climber-accident waiting to happen.

It's not an appropriate technique for everyone, and I absolutely agree with you that inattentive belays are unacceptable and that you should not use any method or technique that you are not fully competent in (in this case, including knowing how to safely lower). Where we differ is that I believe the belayer, not the device, is the primary factor in determining the quality of the belay.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
rgold wrote: That would be good information to post! Again, specific observations you have made have would be great to hear about.
- slide the brake hand down so you have a loop of slack

- hold onto the brake with yr last 3 fingahs

- use the index and thumb to tilt the guide

- use the free hand to pull through the slack loop

- repeat ... Its fast and easy with practice ... I mean how much slack do u REALLY need to give the person on most multis

- in a fall index and thumb come off the guide and brake pulls straight down

Im sure someone will rant about having the plate open ... I suggest trying it real life and having a live load on there (backedup) see how easy it is to hold the guide open with ur finger and thumb when they fall

As to the rest rather than argue over and over again on MP folks should read the reverso/guide instructions and go TEST it for themselves

It simply takes a few minutes after climbing at the crag

;)

Oh and here are a pics of the fist sizes and larger sharks on a popular easy multi we did today

About a dozen sharks came down and we both got peppered by smaller sharks

Now you dont meed autoblock when there are sharks around, but it doesnt hurt one bit

Sharks

Moah sharks

Nasty sharks
christoph benells · · tahoma · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 306

does anyone out there know healyje's reputation in his local climbing scene?

I do,

and it's not good.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
Post a Reply to "Belaying Second in Guide mode - right or left?"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.