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New bolts at Crow Hill

Jonathan Haggerty · · West Acton, MA · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 195

ill be leading dune on pitons next week. I hope you're all ready for some real trad shit!

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
GrantF wrote:MSprague is right in that chopping without coming up with a plan moving forward is not productive and will only rile people up.
Conversely, bolting without coming up with a plan moving forward is not productive and will only rile people up so it sounds like all you guys currently climbing there need to come up with one to avoid this sort of thing in the future.
Jonathan Haggerty · · West Acton, MA · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 195

Furthering my snide BS, why are we even talking about free climbing? Clearly the local community wanted CH to be an aid crag.

J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
Healyje wrote: I'll be the first to bow out when that happens. As it is, most of the new crowd [that even trad climbs] won't go up on serious trad routes.
The problem is that to bow out of hard climbing you have to actually have climbed something hard, and not just scary and dangerous.

Healyje wrote: Conversely, bolting without coming up with a plan moving forward is not productive and will only rile people up so it sounds like all you guys currently climbing there need to come up with one to avoid this sort of thing in the future.
Yes yes, but aid climbing each route into submission should fix the problem, just make sure the pitons only go halfway in so you can still claim to be a hard man. Additionally, sending that shit sober is cheating, the FA was drunk.
Zach Swanson · · Newton, MA · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 36
GrantF wrote:(conversely, if the FFA was done on gear, the FFAer wants to keep it that way, then a gear climb it is)
So what does the community do when someone runs through an area and free climbs everything at an X rating with one sketchy micro-nut placement 50 feet up (or just free solos the FA)? As I understand it (admittedly from hearsay), that's how Nichols used to operate, right? Get the FA on every possible variation of a route in as hard a fashion as possible so that you could demand they stay pure, even if only 1-2 people might ever repeat that 5.9(X). Do we treat that as the law of the land no matter what?
Jonathan Haggerty · · West Acton, MA · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 195
zswan wrote: So what does the community do when someone runs through an area and free climbs everything at an X rating with one sketchy micro-nut placement 50 feet up (or just free solos the FA)? As I understand it (admittedly from hearsay), that's how Nichols used to operate, right? Get the FA on every possible variation of a route in as hard a fashion as possible so that you could demand they stay pure, even if only 1-2 people might ever repeat that 5.9(X). Do we treat that as the law of the land no matter what?
Grants point was lost in that long synopsis of the argument. I don't think he meant to defend Nichol's version of free climbing. He was defending john Mallorys claim to the FA and giving him the final say.

I think if there's one imperical thing the community agrees on its that the FA decides the nature of a route. Having said that, the route needs to get bolted.
Zach Swanson · · Newton, MA · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 36

And I don't mean to imply that he was defending Nichols either. I'm just asking about the other extreme of the argument. Surely there's a limit somewhere where we have to say "the FA was bold, but probably nuts, and this route is not safe."

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
J Q wrote: The problem is that to bow out of hard climbing you have to actually have climbed something hard, and not just scary and dangerous.
Feel free to lead any of my recent FAs and I'll be entirely happy to defer to your judgment given you've been able to dog your way up some riskless .13s. Also, I know plenty of non-R/X trad .10s which regularly turn away climbers who can dog their way up endless sport .12s and .13s. Pure physical difficulty in isolation from all other concerns is not what I personally consider 'hard'.

zswan wrote:...this route is not safe.
The essence of the argument in a nutshell. If you consider climbing as just another risk-free, pop-suburban entertainment option, then sure all routes should be 'safe'. But what's 'safe' is a relative deal and I would argue we should be very, very careful about sanitizing climbing of risk for the sake of the masses' inability to deal with and manage it.

Also, there are R/X routes which see a single lead over decades and others which are led with some frequency and it's worth distinguishing between the two. I'm sure there's no shortage of folks who lament B-Y and Southern Belle aren't 'safe' - does that mean they should be retrobolted?
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

If that's an accurate description then I'd say this is a conversation which should have happened back when they got chopped. On principle in a case like this I'd be for putting them back in given the later lead was a headpoint. But if you do, then you have to be vigilant about people interpreting that as a signal the floodgates are officially now open instead of as an isolated case of rectifying an earlier mistake. Again, can't emphasize enough the potential for that happening and things going sideways, but then, like everything else in life, it's a trade-off.

Zach Swanson · · Newton, MA · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 36
Healyje wrote:then you have to be vigilant about people interpreting that as a signal the floodgates are officially now open
Farley has somehow managed to endure.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
zswan wrote: Farley has somehow managed to endure.
No doubt, since Ken's rampages folks probably keep a close watch on things as they should anywhere in W. MA. That's not the case in other parts of the country and as I've said I've seen things go sideways before and the potential shouldn't be underestimated. If you're not at least somewhat organized it can be a problem.
S. Neoh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 35

I am a big fan of Farley and WMCC. I cannot speak well enough of how Farley has turned out and continue to develop. It is my fav local place to go early Spring and late Fall, and preferably given on a "tour" by Ward or Al.
I like to think CH as 'old guard' and Farley 'more recent' without the popularity and 'gumbiness' often associated with Rumney. It is a happy medium for me.

Ming · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 1,955
zswan wrote: So what does the community do when someone runs through an area and free climbs everything at an X rating with one sketchy micro-nut placement 50 feet up (or just free solos the FA)? As I understand it (admittedly from hearsay), that's how Nichols used to operate, right? Get the FA on every possible variation of a route in as hard a fashion as possible so that you could demand they stay pure, even if only 1-2 people might ever repeat that 5.9(X). Do we treat that as the law of the land no matter what?
So unfortunately that's exactly what has happened to Connecticut. Ken has become such a zealot that he has cut bolts on climbs that he couldn't even claim FA on. There are so many places in eastern CT that can rival at least Crow Hill in popularity if it wasn't for his zealotry.
djh860 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 110

Have the bolts been chopped yet?

J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
Healyje wrote: Feel free to lead any of my recent FAs and I'll be entirely happy to defer to your judgment given you've been able to dog your way up some riskless .13s. ?
Unnecessary risk, especially the need to force unnecessary risk on others, is for teenage minds. Yes when I was 14 to 18 I climbed purely ground up trad to the point of stupidity, I even hit the ground twice, and then I grew up.

This crag isn't that.

It's a dick measuring contest.

Now we are just deciding the rules.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
J Q wrote:Unnecessary risk
The routes I'm talking about protect fine, you'd still have to be able to figure them out. But the above sums it all up nicely. Again, perception of risk is relative and the unwillingness to assume and manage risk by definition means you or someone less bold than you is going too bolt the risk out of climbs and reduce climbing into just another pop-suburban entertainment option - climb or go to the mall? It's a tough decision no doubt.

Mentalities like this will never do onsight, ground-up, trad FAs where the ability to assume and manage risk is paramount.
Zach Swanson · · Newton, MA · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 36
Healyje wrote:Again, perception of risk is relative
To quote the Supreme Court on pornography, "[we] know it when we see it."
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
zswan wrote: To quote the Supreme Court on pornography, "[we] know it when we see it."
Yep. The question, though, is can you assume, manage and mitigate it.
Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

I have not climbed at Crow Hill, but have followed this thread. So how exactly do the pro-bolters plan to bolt this climb? Would it just be another bold route turned into a sport climb, or will you bolt it just to your liking?

If the latter how is that different from what is there? It is already to some people's liking.

HBTHREE · · ma · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 30

wow this thing got some posts, skimmed em but gotta say i didn't read them all, i did read some that r good a lot bad and a lot really off topic, i prob missed a bunch and might b saying wuts already been said. I'm pretty sure the ffa of this rig didn't have 3 bolts in the first 20 ft i've been climbing a while i tr'd here as a cub scout and watched some bold aid and free climbs here as a kid couldn't believe what they were doing then, these days i climb at crow hill maybe a couple times a year so i'm no local, but it's great to come back to a spot the way u left it with a testpiece that still begs you to climb it.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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