Belaying Second in Guide mode - right or left?
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coppolillo wrote:Wow, this guy is really off the mark. Safety? He'd prefer to double the fall forces on his anchor? .I'd prefer a factor 2 fall directly on the anchor over straight onto my harness, baring a super sketchy anchor. Not that you would ever see a factor 2 fall when bringing up a second... |
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Healyje wrote: Well, for one, you have way more faith in anchors (built or bolted and I've replaced about 74 bolted anchors and in 54 out of 74 both bolts were spinners. One anchor bolt broke just under the weight of the breaker bar while I was adjusting my leash).2 HUGE problems with this logic. 1. You are advocating for belaying off of anchors you don't trust. That's a dumb move 2. You are actually putting more force on your "untrusted" anchors with a redirect. Healyje = old dude stuck in his ways not realizing that new techniques can actually be better. To OP's original question. No it's not going to matter unless there is some gnarly huge chickenhead that is going to grab the loop and hamper the belay device from moving. |
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Stagg54 wrote: Agree with your ergonomics part. Number one reason I use guide mode is that on long alpine climb, I can eat, drink, consult the guidebook and change layers, while still belaying all by taking my hands off. Unlike a gri-gri, it is autolocking. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this practice. Show me an accident where the reverso in guide mode was threaded correctly and someone fell and got dropped because the belayer didn't have his hand on the rope. Try and recreate a similar situation in your garage. You can't.As you mentioned it is auto locking and in my world anything that operates automatically is subject to failure. You need to prove that in all and that means in an infinite amount of situations, in the real world not the garage, it will not fail. I'll rely on a backup knot, belay off my harness and redirect off a higher piece. If you are comfortable doing it your way be my guest. I'll keep it simple I just have to thread the rope through my device, lock the binner as I can belay right or left handed. On long routes I'll do what's necessary before I belay or after my partner gets there. I just belay when I'm belaying or I tie a backup Knot, |
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Healyje wrote:Yeah, there clearly must be some other reason why someone is being dropped by a belayer using a grigri every 15 minutes, 24x7 somewhere around the planet these days.This has become like a mantra for you, but I've never seen you back it up with statistics to prove the absurd assertion that:
Or maybe you just take it for granted that everyone knows you've got an axe to grind and are therefore indulging in gross exaggeration. JL |
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Healyje wrote: Yeah, there clearly must be some other reason why someone is being dropped by a belayer using a grigri every 15 minutes, 24x7 somewhere around the planet these days. And let's at least be honest, there's a grigri on every harness not because it's a great belay device, but because it's a great hanging device.Can't tell if this was just epic trolling or not. Fairly certain you're being serious... |
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saxfiend wrote:4,992 climbers per year are being dropped by grigris.Hell, there's probably going on that many climbing gyms worldwide at this point given even Moldova and Malta have three apiece. But conservatively say there's half that number. Now add every sport crag in the world - easily thousands if not tens of thousands I'd guess. One drop per year at each and you'd have way, way over 5k climbers being dropped per year. How many gyms and sport venues do you suppose go a year without anyone at all being dropped? World-wide Rock Climbing Gym & Artificial Wall Listing |
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Poor, poor haelyge |
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This is a long essay that I feel is appropriate for a beginners thread on the use of guide plates. There is a lot to consider. |
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Is everyone still arguing over autoblock these days? ... I thought that was passe |
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NorCalNomad wrote: 2 HUGE problems with this logic. 1. You are advocating for belaying off of anchors you don't trust. That's a dumb move 2. You are actually putting more force on your "untrusted" anchors with a redirect. Healyje = old dude stuck in his ways not realizing that new techniques can actually be better. To OP's original question. No it's not going to matter unless there is some gnarly huge chickenhead that is going to grab the loop and hamper the belay device from moving.Old dudes are always right, right? |
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bearbreeder wrote:Is everyone still arguing over autoblock these days? ... I thought that was passe Its not like we have anything better to do than rant against the autoblock now ... Like climb I lool forward to my fellow MPers on multi at belays wagging their fingers at folks who dare use the forbidden autoblock !!!DAMN THESE YOUNG WHIPPERSNAPPERS TRYING NEW THINGS, BITD WE WERE JUST FINE WITH A GOOD STANCE AND AN OLD FASIONED HIP BELAY!!! |
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Healyje wrote: Maybe you can't, but I sure as hell can as I keep a constant, ever-so-slight tension on the rope so I can continuously feel what's happening and can tell pretty much exactly what they're up all the time to if I've climbed with them much at all. Ditto for an out-of-sight leader.Absolutely nothing is stopping you from doing the same in guide mode. Healyje wrote:Crikey, glad I'm not climbing with your partners. Unless you're taking a break on an route longer than eight pitches or move like molasses I much prefer to stay focused on the actual climbing, not dick around, move fast, and get up and off the the route. Um... That was my point. Guide mode can help you move fast and get up the route. And of course I'm talking about climbing long multi pitch routes. Why would climbers be talking about food etc. On a couple pitch route!? rgold wrote:This is a long essay that I feel is appropriate for a beginners thread on the use of guide plates. There is a lot to consider. I completely agree with this. I love the guide mode. But under no circumstances do I recommend that novices use it. I was having this discussion just a couple of weeks ago. There are lots of aspects to consider and I think you summed it up well. |
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I'm genuinely interested in the different ways to belay your second. When I learned to climb bigger multipitch, I thought you were limited to guide mode devices, a redirected munter or a gri off the anchor. If someone would please list a few of these I would like to do some research. Cheers |
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"He'd prefer to double the fall forces on his anchor?" |
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DavisMeschke wrote:I'm genuinely interested in the different ways to belay your second. When I learned to climb bigger multipitch, I thought you were limited to guide mode devices, a redirected munter or a gri off the anchor. If someone would please list a few of these I would like to do some research. Cheers1. Standard belay off harness. No redirect. Personally I think this should be the FIRST technique taught. I use this whenever I don't use my reverso in autoblock. If you can brace yourself you can even do this without an anchor! 2. Belay off harness with redirect. 3. Belay off directly off anchor with device. |
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Stagg54 wrote: Agree with your ergonomics part. Number one reason I use guide mode is that on long alpine climb, I can eat, drink, consult the guidebook and change layers, while still belaying all by taking my hands off. Unlike a gri-gri, it is autolocking. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this practice. Show me an accident where the reverso in guide mode was threaded correctly and someone fell and got dropped because the belayer didn't have his hand on the rope. Try and recreate a similar situation in your garage. You can't.^^^. Wrong. And this is exactly the mindset that healyje is referring to. There have been accidents with properly threaded auto blocks. One right before my very eyes. And there have been others too. The most important part of the response to the OPD is that the device is oriented in a way that it cannot be impeded to orientate itself into locking. This is not a concern most of the time. But it is real critical when the routt traverses just before the anchor. In this case when the follower Falls the device must be able to swing and point to the last piece of gear without anything affecting it. this scenario becomes even more critical with a party of three. If the first follower reaches the anchor and hangs directly down on the device it is now left wide open to the other follower and will not lock. Anyone that Climbs with a party of three and an auto block device should be keenly aware of this. Whenever you belay a second with an auto block device you should always pull The rope tight when you begin to belay to ensure the device can rotate into the proper direction. Oh and all this about doubling the forces on the anchor. Um hello if you are already hanging from the anchor and you do a redirect you cannot double the forces they are the same. you hanging, your partner hanging. Yes there is a theoretical doubling on the specific redirect piece. But the anchor as a whole will see no difference in load with a redirect versus an auto block if the belayer is hanging on the anchor. |
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There are so many retarded things being said in this thread, but I guess I'm going to chime in. If anyone out there is actually reading this thread for a curiosity as to what to do, and not just arguing their opinionated b.s.... Greg D wrote: The most important part of the response to the OPD is that the device is oriented in a way that it cannot be impeded to orient itself into locking. This is not a concern most of the time. But it is real critical when the route traverses just before the anchor.An experienced climber might just figure this out for themselves, but it could be easily overlooked. I had to figure this out after the Thin Air traverse. It was very obvious to me and I forget whether I belayed off the harness or just belayed in guide, knowing it wouldn't lock. I could imagine there would be scenarios where it would be less obvious, and someone not keenly aware of this possibility, could get someone hurt. |
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Dr. Crankenstein wrote:An answer for the OP. I base my decision of which direction to point my belay device in guide mode on which side of me my second in going to approach. For example, if the pitch I just led traverses into the belay from the right I will set up the belay device to pull rope from that direction. Another more common example for me is belaying in a dihedral. Let's say it's a right facing dihedral. Unless there are face holds leading out to your right, the second will be approaching the belay on your left so you will want to orient your device to pull rope from that side. If you don't you will either have to deal with a rope cluster or flip the rope over you head as your second approaches effectively pointing your device in that direction in the end. The rope cluster that failing to do this will cause is very evident if and when your second begins leading the next pitch. I know it seems like a small issue but rope clusters are the biggest loss of time while multipitch climbing with a storm bearing down or angry people following you.Makes sense...I'll definitely keep that in mind in the future! I was wondering if anyone else was going to address the original topic, lol. As far as this argument...direct belays are guide standard (one of the videos I posted was done by an AMGA guide), so I don't get why anyone would ever argue against their use beyond the matter of simple preference. Nevertheless, there are other threads for that... |
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Kent Richards wrote: By "feels more like a normal toprope belay", do you mean that you're using your hands in the same way as you would for toprope belay (your "usual" hand on the brake, for example)? If so, that's a limitation. Learn to use both hands for different purposes, so that you can switch according to the situation. Set up the anchor and belay in the best configuration for the conditions, looking out for stuff getting tangled, biner gates or ropes being pressed against the rock in inconvenient or dangerous ways, rope crossing over rope or slings etc. And yeah, if the second is going to come up to your left, you'd usually point the plastic loop to the right, and vice-versa.That's a fair point. |
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tradvlad wrote: I am sorry to hear about your friend. That is very unfortunate, but could have been prevented. I belay in guide mode 99% - All the of the pros and cons have been already stated. However, I never lower in guide mode. I don't think it is safe, as you pointed out. Here is a video to quickly convert a guide to lower, if you need to lower your partner for some reason. youtube.com/watch?v=JoZ-5xr…That's actually a great idea. I do agree that lowering in guide mode (aside from rotating the binder if you're just inching a few feet) is dangerous, largely because it's so rare that people have to do it that I'd venture a guess that most accidents are caused by not knowing exactly how to safely disengage the autoblock. Sorry for the late stream of posts...was doing this "climbing" thing yesterday. :p |