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Belaying Second in Guide mode - right or left?

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 674

I have to agree with Healyje. I don't enjoy being belayed in guide mode. I think it can promote sloppy belay habits.

I especially don't like being lowered in guide mode. There have been several accidents lowering in guide mode and I think there will be more as climbers use it more and more. I've seen and talked with climbers who think it's the only way to top belay and don't know any other ways.

That said, I believe it is a tool that has a specific use. I only belay in guide mode when climbing on double ropes and belaying two climbers at the same time.

christoph benells · · tahoma · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 306

^^^true, i knew a girl once who was dropped by lowering from a guide mode setup up top.

she broke her legs.

although, I think that the guide mode belay (or any auto locking belay) actually provides the safest, and smoothest belay for a follower.

tradvlad · · SLC, UT · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 5
christoph benells wrote:^^^true, i knew a girl once who was dropped by lowering from a guide mode setup up top. she broke her legs. although, I think that the guide mode belay (or any auto locking belay) actually provides the safest, and smoothest belay for a follower.
I am sorry to hear about your friend. That is very unfortunate, but could have been prevented.

I belay in guide mode 99% - All the of the pros and cons have been already stated. However, I never lower in guide mode. I don't think it is safe, as you pointed out.

Here is a video to quickly convert a guide to lower, if you need to lower your partner for some reason.

youtube.com/watch?v=JoZ-5xr…
christoph benells · · tahoma · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 306

i never said she was my friend, i just knew her...

judging by her character and the people she surrounded herself with...yes, could have been easily prevented, much earlier in her life with better parenting skills.

anyway, back to the topic already!

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Leslie McG wrote:I dont think guide mode= laziness anymore than using a gri does.
Yeah, there clearly must be some other reason why someone is being dropped by a belayer using a grigri every 15 minutes, 24x7 somewhere around the planet these days. And let's at least be honest, there's a grigri on every harness not because it's a great belay device, but because it's a great hanging device.
FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

So if I use either a Gri-Gri, or belay device in guide mode improperly, I can drop someone? I have to know how to properly use these darn things? Strange, huh?

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
FrankPS wrote:So if I use either a Gri-Gri, or belay device in guide mode improperly, I can drop someone? I have to know how to properly use these darn things? Strange, huh?
Stranger than you might think from the amount of folks dropped. Again, both unfortunately breed lousy belay habits as far as I'm concerned. Bottom line for me is most folks belaying in guide mode can't accommodate a second who needs to variously downclimb or really even detect and feed the rope as they do to an out-of-sight second who is.
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347

I prefer to belay a second to the anchor using a Munter hitch. Easily reversable to pay rope out on a traverse, downclimb, or when the second needs to make a move back down to a stance from the crux.

"Guide mode" or I should say "plaquette" is really not a good idea if your second is a newbie or not a strong climber.

This assumes the anchor is bomber. That is a value judgement that each person must make when building their own anchors or considering the "stance".

budman · · Moab,UT · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 11

Wonder if the guy I saw on Tunnel Vision watched the same video as the O.P. Our party of 3 was ahead of this guy so we got to see a lot of what was going on. In guide mode the dude would always take both hands off the rope when belaying to operate the walkie talkie. Hence his nick name is Walkie Talkie Man. When I casually said something about holding the break hand end of the rope I got a lecture about how these were design to be used that way and they always lock up, (right up until they don't, I added that). I think he was belaying his girlfriend as we did not see her because she had a bit of a time operating the walkie talkie and climbing at the same time. Had to take his hands off the rope to operate the walkie talkie a number of times. Never once tied a back up knot. If they where married I would have thought he was trying to do her in.

I'm not too resistant to change but keeping it simple seems prudent. Still belay off my harness and keep the belay loop open for other chores which reduces one more link in the system. Can escape the belay in under 60 secs. if not half that time. And I don't mind holding my partner if they need the time to figure out the climb or retrieve gear. The #1 reason I don't belay off the anchor is that it is ergonomically more efficient to pay in and out rope belaying off your harness.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

Whether or not it's right or left, I've generally seen that for any non-use of the guide mode there's usually a genetic whiney-bitch factor times ten from the climbing partner to begin with.

Just realize, it's genetic. They can't help it.

coppolillo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 70

Wow, this guy is really off the mark.

Safety?

He'd prefer to double the fall forces on his anchor? Forego an automatic backup should his belayer get hit in the head/stung by ill-tempered death-wasps/check Tinder/need to do something else?

If you're worried about the integrity of the anchor off which your belayer is working, then you sure as shit shouldn't redirect the belay through it. Bolts, RP's, 2x4s, whatever.

How about get proficient with the device--just like every other technique you can imagine, from driving to carpentry to belaying to using a microwave?

Certitude on MP.com is sure sign of a brittle ego.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
coppolillo wrote:Safety?...check Tinder/need to do something else?
My point exactly. If you can't take time out of your busy life to belay a frigging pitch without needing to do 'something else' then you shouldn't be belaying. As for the other's, yeah, they happen like all the time; right up there with shark-proofing your car in case you might someday drive into the drink. Crikey, perceptions of risk and safety are so skewed these days as to be laughable. The most dangerous thing in climbing these days is distracted and inattentive belayers, doubly so if they're using a grigri.

Deciding devices can save you from incompetence is just stupid and calling it 'safety' or 'safer' is missing the point by a mile.

coppolillo wrote:If you're worried about the integrity of the anchor off which your belayer is working, then you sure as shit shouldn't redirect the belay through it. Bolts, RP's, 2x4s, whatever.
Neither would I; I'd belay off my harness, do it all the time. But, again, it's really not about the belaying, it's about the hanging that drives both grigri and guide mode use.

coppolillo wrote:How about get proficient with the device...
Well, when someone tells me they can instantly detect and feed rope to an out-of-sight downclimbing partner and I'll show you liar.
NateGfunk · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 50

left in the southern hemisphere, right in the northern hemisphere.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

But but.. what of the equator, and the poles? ?

patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25

There is so much wrong with basically everything that Healyje has said here today that I stopped trying to bother quoting and responding. It is pretty much all untrue rubbish.

So instead I'll quote the one correct thing he has said.

Healyje wrote:Well, when someone tells me they can instantly detect and feed rope to an out-of-sight downclimbing partner and I'll show you liar.
That is true. But you can't "instantly detect" a downclimbing partner in other belays either.

Furthermore your second is on top rope what is the big deal about their belay as long as they get one and the slack isn't too much? (If their a beginner they appreciate a firm belay, if their not who cares about a little slack.)

If I am seconding I would my prefer my leader to have had a drink. eaten a snack, stayed warm, taken his photos all by the time I've come up. Then we can get on with the next pitch without wasting any time.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
patto wrote:So instead I'll quote the one correct thing he has said. That is true. But you can't "instantly detect" a downclimbing partner in other belays either.
Maybe you can't, but I sure as hell can as I keep a constant, ever-so-slight tension on the rope so I can continuously feel what's happening and can tell pretty much exactly what they're up all the time to if I've climbed with them much at all. Ditto for an out-of-sight leader.

patto wrote:If I am seconding I would my prefer my leader to have had a drink. eaten a snack, stayed warm, taken his photos all by the time I've come up. Then we can get on with the next pitch without wasting any time.
Crikey, glad I'm not climbing with your partners. Unless you're taking a break on an route longer than eight pitches or move like molasses I much prefer to stay focused on the actual climbing, not dick around, move fast, and get up and off the the route.
Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
Healyje wrote: Yah, and when folks default to guide mode it immediately makes me suspect about safety in most other aspects of climbing. And if you think guide mode somehow equates to safety or safer than I lament for the future.
There are times when it is appropriate and times when it is not. I would say that where I climb it is only inappropriate about 10% of the time. The rest of the time it works just fine.

Belayers not paying attention really has nothing to do with the device.
Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
wivanoff wrote: I especially don't like being lowered in guide mode. There have been several accidents lowering in guide mode
There is a definite technique to it and lots of people do it wrong. Again not really the fault of the device any more than it is the gri-gris fault when some noob doesn't know how to use it and drops someone.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Stagg54 wrote:Belayers not paying attention really has nothing to do with the device.
It does when using the device breeds inattention.
Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
budman wrote:Wonder if the guy I saw on Tunnel Vision watched the same video as the O.P. Our party of 3 was ahead of this guy so we got to see a lot of what was going on. In guide mode the dude would always take both hands off the rope when belaying to operate the walkie talkie. Hence his nick name is Walkie Talkie Man. When I casually said something about holding the break hand end of the rope I got a lecture about how these were design to be used that way and they always lock up, (right up until they don't, I added that). I think he was belaying his girlfriend as we did not see her because she had a bit of a time operating the walkie talkie and climbing at the same time. Had to take his hands off the rope to operate the walkie talkie a number of times. Never once tied a back up knot. If they where married I would have thought he was trying to do her in. I'm not too resistant to change but keeping it simple seems prudent. Still belay off my harness and keep the belay loop open for other chores which reduces one more link in the system. Can escape the belay in under 60 secs. if not half that time. And I don't mind holding my partner if they need the time to figure out the climb or retrieve gear. The #1 reason I don't belay off the anchor is that it is ergonomically more efficient to pay in and out rope belaying off your harness.
Agree with your ergonomics part. Number one reason I use guide mode is that on long alpine climb, I can eat, drink, consult the guidebook and change layers, while still belaying all by taking my hands off. Unlike a gri-gri, it is autolocking. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this practice. Show me an accident where the reverso in guide mode was threaded correctly and someone fell and got dropped because the belayer didn't have his hand on the rope. Try and recreate a similar situation in your garage. You can't.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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