Tying Cordelette directly through Bolt Hangers?

Am I the only one that actually misses Yarp?

Marc H wrote:Am I the only one that actually misses Yarp?

Don't miss his a bit...ALTHOUGH he quite frequently had great points, and as an New Englander a blunt and direct style works for me BUT!!! It was always lost in him just being a dick.

Geir wrote:Thought some actual measurements might be interesting to post here, so I did some pull testing this afternoon...

Thanks, actual data is always a nice thing to have. Being an evidence-based type I have two points of critical appraisal. (Every research paper always ends with "more research is needed", you know!)

First is the nature of the hanger. I see in your subsequent post that it's not a rap hanger, just a regular bolt hanger. Is it new? My concern with the single-unit sample size is generalizability. A hanger that has a nick or burr in it could, when used for toproping (not just static pulls), result in cord/tape failure at dramatically lower loads than your sample. I've seen some not-too-pristine hangers out there.

Second is the level of confidence that one can have that "it never happens" based on a single test article and set of tests. You've established that under normal conditions the probability of failure is low. However, risk = probability x severity. In this case severity is death, so probability doesn't have to be high for risk to be in the "not a really good idea" range. Normal conditions don't always obtain, and it takes a lot of testing to determine if the probability is one in a million (in which case it's probably not as dangerous as a long car trip to a climbing area) or one in a thousand (more than I want to take).

Personally, I would advise against it. Not because "yer gunna die", but because it's a risk for which I have no real estimate, but that is easily and quickly rendered moot with a couple 'biners of known extremely low failure risk.

It's only been in the last decade or so that chain anchors have become popular. We used 2 pieces of 1 inch webbing for years. Sometimes a circle of webbing through both hangers, sometimes a separate piece on each hanger but always with redundancy. They would be subjected to hundreds of top rope falls and months in the sun. We used to carry 3 foot sections of webbing on our harnesses to replace tattered, spooky bits on long climbs. It was used for rapping, belaying, top roping, cams, chocks and the occasional rope swing. I don't know of a single failure with webbing that was fresh. Not one! We still use webbing today. I have a 20 foot piece in my pack and a sharp knife. How else are you going to get down from a multi-pitch climb that doesn't have chains or a walk-down. You gonna leave those pricey little biners or draws??

So, it's been done forever and you're not gonna die.

You can have bad webbing, bolts, ropes and harnesses. It's up to you to make sure everything is safe. Check, double check and be redundant.

Having said all this Mr Green probably has the right idea. You don't need it for TRing. Use draws.

Lee Green wrote: Personally, I would advise against it. Not because "yer gunna die", but because it's a risk for which I have no real estimate, but that is easily and quickly rendered moot with a couple 'biners of known extremely low failure risk.

Brad

Pull test of an 8mm dyneema sling (22 kN) girth hitched to a Fixe hanger:

youtube.com/watch?v=dKHfdJl…

The sling failed near the contact with the hanger, but not before the hanger started to deform... It failed at just over 60% of its rated strength, which is in the ballpark of the strength reduction that you will see in a dyneema sling simply attributable to tying it in a girth hitch.
Wouldn't make a habit of doing this (for longevity of your slings), but good to know that it's fine to do in a pinch or in a bail situation.

George Zack wrote:Pull test of an 8mm dyneema sling (22 kN) girth hitched to a Fixe hanger: youtube.com/watch?v=dKHfdJl… The sling failed near the contact with the hanger, but not before the hanger started to deform... It failed at just over 60% of its rated strength, which is in the ballpark of the strength reduction that you will see in a dyneema sling simply attributable to tying it in a girth hitch. Wouldn't make a habit of doing this (for longevity of your slings), but good to know that it's fine to do in a pinch or in a bail situation.

Geir wrote:Thought some actual measurements might be interesting to post here, so I did some pull testing this afternoon: Loops of 7mm cord tied directly through a hanger broke at around 2000 pounds. If the loops were attached to carabiners instead of the hanger they broke at around 3000 pounds. I also tied a loop of 7mm cord directly through a hanger and pulled it to 600 pounds and released the load. I repeated this with the same loop 35 times without changing where the hanger was contacting the loop. The sheath of the cord did not fray, and the six individual cords of the core did not have noticeable damage. My thoughts: Is tying cord directly to the hangers the best practice for toprope setups? No. Is doing this a guaranteed recipe for anchor failure? Probably not.

So basically, as long as my gear is relatively good condition I can "abuse it" in a fashion that would be considered less than efficient and as long as I'm not using it as an anchor for a rescue situation involving a litter and multiple rescuers it would solid

Thank you for the pull tests! Very informative.

Les Green elaborates on Mal Daly's claim that this is "not a good idea." I'd add one further philosophical remark about that observation.

When faced with a situation with a low probability of failure but a very high risk in case of failure, I think the appropriate question is not "how likely is it that anything will go wrong,"---a question whose answer is "very unlikely"---but rather "how much trouble is it going to be to prevent this admittedly unlikely occurrence?"

If prevention requires something complicated, time-consuming, and/or the sacrifice of gear, then it make sense in many situations (although top-roping probably isn't one them) to live with the small risk. But if prevention is quick and easy, then I think it makes no sense to embrace even a very small but potentially fatal risk.

In the present case, clipping a pair of lockers to the bolts is about as simple, quick and easy as it is possible to be, so I'd vote with those who say that threading the cordelette is a bad idea.

If the same two bolts were half way up a wall and a retreat was called for, I'd have no hesitation about threading cord for a rap anchor and so would vote that threading the cordelette is perfectly fine.

I think this applies to a lot of safety arguments. If it is quick and easy to avoid dangers that are substantial but very unlikely, why not avoid them? Discussing how unlikely they are misses the point.

Those of us who have climbed for a long time have seen some incredibly unlikely things happen, sometimes with horrific results. Do not confuse "very unlikely" with "impossible."

P.S. Don't think of 2000 lbf as some astronomical load unattainable in a top-rope situation.

Toby Butterfield wrote:There's no way that retying a double fisherman's every time you build a anchor is faster than clipping two biners, though...

Cords can be used untied and then tied after they are placed. I still would not run one directly through the hanger.

Being somewhat of a newb, I'm also very careful with how I operate. Maybe It's overkill but whenever I have to rap and I only have bolts with no rings, I'll just drop some leave behind quick links. I pay about $7 ea. for stainless ones at Home Depot. Always carry them with me. I figure that $14 for a day of climbing isn't a bad exchange. What are your thoughts on this? Am I wasting money? Being overly cautious?

Nope. I always have a couple of quick links on my harness for just that purpose.

Really bad idea their gonna die don't. Stand below them

The American Mountain Guides Association doesn't seem to think it's a bad practice. Although it looks like they're cleaning up a rapp anchor and not building a top rope anchor in this video.

vimeo.com/126266810

JoeGaribay wrote:...Am I wasting money?

Yes. you should get at least 6 of them for 14 dollars.

Oh damn! Maybe it cost me more because I was getting beefy quick links. I believe they were 3/8. Is that too big? I'll have to research this later and shop around better. Thank you, Gription

Get plated links? Those are a lot cheaper for bailing, I sometimes use 1/4in links when weight is a concern.

Tying cord through hangers is a pretty standard practice in lots of remote crags, and by ice climbers. But ice climbers do lots of weird stuff. Last spring I found brand new tat on a tree passing up the recently replaced anchor that had rap rings. Weird.

JoeGaribay wrote:Being somewhat of a newb, I'm also very careful with how I operate. Maybe It's overkill but whenever I have to rap and I only have bolts with no rings, I'll just drop some leave behind quick links. I pay about $7 ea. for stainless ones at Home Depot. Always carry them with me. I figure that $14 for a day of climbing isn't a bad exchange. What are your thoughts on this? Am I wasting money? Being overly cautious?

But are you threading cord/webbing directly through the hanger? As I picture it, you need at least 3 links to create a cord-and-link(s) rap anchor that would satisfy everyone in this thread. Now we're talking $25 per rap. $30+ if you need two links at the rope end "for redundancy".

Well Gunkiemike, I'm trying to learn as much as I can and learn the right way, if there are blank (no rings or chain) rap anchors, is it ok to leave two quick links, one in each bolt (assuming there are two side by side), set my rope in them, and drop it for my rappel and lower off that. Now there are two new stainless links for others to use or build off. Is it it a bad idea to rap this way? Does it create too much force on the bolts, pulling on them inwards instead of downwards? Even if I'm just lowering my self and not falling on them? Is it bad practice to leave the links up there? If I'm wrong, please let the criticism fly. I want to do this correctly and do not wish to inhibit others in future climbs.

Joe.... it is bad practice to clutter up bolts with quick links.

Thats why Eiger oval biners were invented. :>)

JoeGaribay wrote:Well Gunkiemike, I'm trying to learn as much as I can and learn the right way, if there are blank (no rings or chain) rap anchors, is it ok to leave two quick links, one in each bolt (assuming there are two side by side), set my rope in them, and drop it for my rappel and lower off that. Now there are two new stainless links for others to use or build off. Is it it a bad idea to rap this way? Does it create too much force on the bolts, pulling on them inwards instead of downwards? Even if I'm just lowering my self and not falling on them? Is it bad practice to leave the links up there? If I'm wrong, please let the criticism fly. I want to do this correctly and do not wish to inhibit others in future climbs.

Thanks for being being considerate to other climbers and asking questions.

Nothing necessarily wrong with doing this (adding burly stainless links to a belay anchor), but with only one link on each hanger, you might get twists in your rope. If the route is intended to continue on or has an easy walk off, and you're just bailing due to special circumstances, they'll probably get removed so you might as well just use cheaper bail biners and webbing/cord. If you're trying to set something more permanent for other users, you should add two links to each hanger or some chain so ropes don't get twisted.