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Why is Trad so much more difficult in grade than sport?

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
bearbreeder wrote:Its the new leader who has absolute confidence in his gear placements that i would be much more worried about Being nervous about well place bomber gear is not uncommon on yr first few trad leads ... Just saying ;)
Get a grip. No one is remotely talking about "absolute confidence in his gear placements", we're talking about someone who, by their own words, didn't have a clue as to the quality of their placements. Maybe just stop saying and trying to defend the pointlessly indefensible.

bearbreeder wrote:Well no one here was there to watch the climb or follow up to check the gear Ive known plenty of folks that felt very nervous on their first few leads ... And their gear was perfectly fine And ive known new leaders who proudly proclaim their gear is bomber and it turned out to be total shiet Were all here lambasting something that none of us witnessed ...
Irrelevant, we're reacting to the poster's own words.

bearbreeder wrote:To be blunt if we were really concerned about new leaders we would be spending our time taking tons of newbs under our wings and making sure they get the "proper" instructions.
I do.

bearbreeder wrote:The reality is that were sitting around here grumbling about what folks should or should not do ... And arguing about the "proper way" to learn Every one whose climbed a bit and pushed themselves has done stuff that perhaps isnt the best or wisest ... Thats reality, not da intrawebz
Also irrelevant.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Healyje wrote: Get a grip. No one is remotely talking about "absolute confidence in his gear placements", we're talking about someone who, by their own words, didn't have a clue as to the quality of their placements. Maybe just stop saying and trying to defend the pointlessly indefensible.
Oh come on there yr lambasting someone for going out and doing a lead

You werent there, you dont know the climber, you dont know didnt check the gear afterwards, and yr here making "intrawebz" judgements on what folks should or should not do

Ive seen plenty of folks who place fine gear shake and get quite nervous on gear leads .... Thats part of leading and trad, dealing with that fear

Newbies, older folks who havent climbed in a while, etc ...

If you really care take out tons of newbies and teach em yr wisdom .... Rather than proclaiming what folks should or shouldnt do on MP

;)
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
bearbreeder wrote:Newbies, older folks who havent climbed in a while, etc ...
On year forty-one of climbing; still alive; still leading trad .11; and still putting up FAs that don't see many second ascents due to the seriousness and technicality of the lead...
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Healyje wrote: On year forty-one of climbing; still alive; still leading trad .11; and still putting up FAs that don't see many second ascents due to the seriousness and technicality of the lead...
Wow. You're super cool.
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

Most every noob is insecure about the quality of their placements. If they're not, they sure as he'll should be.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
csproul wrote: Wow. You're super cool.
No, I'm not, and there are plenty of other folks out there doing the same. What I'm not, however, is some has-been couch surfer spewing on the internet. Consider what I have to say or don't, but my observations and advice are first-hand, hard-won, and tested over time.
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Healyje wrote: No, I'm not, and there are plenty of other folks out there doing the same. What I'm not, however, is some has-been couch surfer spewing on the internet. Consider what I have to say or don't, but my observations and advice are first-hand, hard-won, and tested over time.
And don't forget "delivered with charm" too.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
csproul wrote: And don't forget "delivered with charm" too.
I believe there is a movie quote out there about affability and deliberateness relative to a serious business. This is one and there's little point in sugar-coating or charm in the long run.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
csproul wrote:Most every noob is insecure about the quality of their placements. If they're not, they sure as he'll should be.
I'm still insecure about some of my placements. I've had half a dozen climbers evaluate my gear and say it's bomber but I still worry if I'm onsighting a route. I want every piece to be text book but sometimes that don't happen.

Bear, I've taught more than a couple people to trad lead. Its great when I can climb with friends who climb 5.10 sport or 5.11 in the gym and still have a great day.
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Bill Kirby wrote: I'm still insecure about some of my placements. I've had half a dozen climbers evaluate my gear and say it's bomber but I still worry if I'm onsighting a route. I want every piece to be text book but sometimes that don't happen. Bear, I've taught more than a couple people to trad lead. Its great when I can climb with friends who climb 5.10 sport or 5.11 in the gym and still have a great day.
Well then, according to Healyje, you should probably just quit climbing. It's not for everyone, you know.
Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
csproul wrote: Well then, according to Healyje, you should probably just quit climbing. It's not for everyone, you know.
LMMFAO!
Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86

You guys are awesome! Thanks for all the info! It's enlightening to know that there are so many experienced and professional climbers on MP willing to give up all this invaluable information. Certainly no way to learn the sport but you guys have made me cautious and to think thoroughly about what I say on here. Which I have noticed is transferring to my own climbing. When I'm out on the rock I'm often thinking that someone from MP is going to choke me out from behind if I do something wrong. Basically you guys are making sure I'm as thorough and safe as possible. Last time I went out I was able to spot so many mistakes others had made. Even had rocks falling on us from the 15 people over head. No more LA crag climbing for me. What I learned that day is that sometimes you just have to pack up and leave.
Keep on with the criticisms. Tough love is good for the soul!

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
csproul wrote: Well then, according to Healyje, you should probably just quit climbing. It's not for everyone, you know.
Well, if he can't develop confidence in his pro after dozens of folks have assured him it's good, and that continued over an extended period of time, then yes, that might be a good indicator trad leading might not be for him.
Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
Healyje wrote: Well, if he can't develop confidence in his pro after dozens of folks have assured him it's good, and that continued over an extended period of time, then yes, that might be a good indicator trad leading might not be for him.
In the unlikely event that your BF has not already developed ED I hope he does. Karmas a bitch and...
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

I'm 20 some years into climbing. I still don't 100% trust my gear. Sometimes I have irrational fears about climbing over "good" gear. Yet here I am still climbing. And still pulling off what I consider to be worthy objectives. Maybe if Healyje would examine my placements over the interwebs and tell me they were ok I'd make it another 20 years and start doing rad solo 5.11 FA's that nobody can repeat. Or maybe I should just quit too.

I'm much more worried about the noob who is confident in their newfound skill of placing gear. Those are the one who keep pushing it until they fall on their crap gear.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

I said some of, not every piece I place.. Nevemind I'm selling my rack..

Rack for sale.

Triple X4s .1-.75, a Metolius PAS and an alpine pack for sale. Will trade for quickdraws, crag pack and a stick clip.

Reason for selling. I didn't have confidence in two or three placements outta of every hundred so I was told I don't have what it takes to be trad climber.

PM me for pics. I'll be crying in the shower for a while so a reply might take a minute.

Idaho Bob · · McCall, ID · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 757

If worried, just put a screamer on it and go!

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

I haven't even been leading trad for a year at this point, but I second guess my placements some of the time. If I'm unsure about a piece I'll sometimes tell to my partner to evaluate that placement when they take it out, because it's nice to have someone else's perspective.

Greg, how did YOU feel about your placements? Did you discuss them with your follower afterwards as far as why certain ones weren't okay? I'm curious: from what people have said it sounds like that route takes good gear the whole way. Did you stitch it up? Seems like a route that can take gear at any time is ideal for a new leader because even if some placements aren't good, if the leader puts in gear every few feet and most of the gear is good, a fall would still be protected even if the last piece failed. Which isn't to say I think more gear is an alternative to understanding or skill in gear placement, but it'd improve the odds of being protected.

If I see anything suspect when I'm cleaning, I'll talk to my leader about it, even if they're more experienced than I am. And i expect the same because I've made some obvious mistakes setting gear, so I'd always rather hear about it.

I don't think it's at all unnatural for a new trad leader to be concerned about their placements, especially when they've never tested them. The leader does however need to understand and know what they're doing.

SethG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 291

I think two very different things are being conflated here.

1. Psychological fear/trusting trad placements

versus

2. Not knowing how to evaluate trad gear.

Of course practically everyone has issues with trusting the gear at one time or another. And of course in some circumstances we are forced to rely on gear that we wish were better.

I read Greg to be saying something different-- more like number 2 above. That's what worried me. And I would not say that his partner's estimation that 3/4 of the pieces were good is particularly reassuring, given the availability of bomber gear throughout the climb in question.

But I certainly did not mean to discourage Greg from trad climbing or to suggest to him that he give it up. I think some time with a mentor or a guide who can give some good feedback over a session or two would serve him very well-- some practice on the ground, some work at dialing in placements while leading something very easy. These are just suggestions for safety. It will serve him well and allow to him to lead a trad pitch (that has awesome gear available) without feeling like he's soloing because he has no idea if the gear's any good.

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
bearbreeder wrote: Oh come on there yr lambasting someone for going out and doing a lead You werent there, you dont know the climber, you dont know didnt check the gear afterwards, and yr here making "intrawebz" judgements on what folks should or should not do ;)
No, I'm just reacting to Greg saying that he only thought 75% of his placements were good. If there's more than 1 or 2 pieces I don't feel comfortable with on a pitch, generally that means there is something seriously wrong. And generally I place them because there is absolutely nothing else and I tend to back those up by placing a bomber piece as soon as I can. Occasionally the rock is just complete choss, but I generally try to avoid those routes. Rhododendron, which I have done, is not one of those routes.

If only 75% of your pro is good, then you probably need more practice placing pro on the ground.

Not trying to be condescending, just trying to help the guy survive...
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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