Why is Trad so much more difficult in grade than sport?

The fact that 99% of people, who even climb trad, do so well below their sport grade pretty much says it all. One can dicker about why that is, but the truth is it's just a more complex and demanding affair with a larger [personal] assumption of risk.

This^ is certainly true. A little counter intuitive however as harder routes are usually safer.

eric parham wrote: I am going to humbly disagree. Having climbed some hard cracks and some hard sport routes, The technique of crack climbing pales in comparison to the technique of sport climbing. I don't fall off cracks because I am confused. I fall off cracks because of the pain or because I can't do the moves. Technical crack climbing is trivial and easy compared to technical sport climbing.

You're paraphrasing both Watts and Hong and I'd agree up to a point. However, I do think that sentiment grossly generalizes a hard earned mastery (or even proficiency for that matter) of crack technique. Both those guys also happen to be outstanding climbers.

I've climbed quite a few cracks and don't really think they are painful save for a move here or there. I'm generally out of position in these instances.

Out of curiosity what do you consider a hard crack?

Greg Petliski wrote:...and since I wasn't sure how good my pieces were, I thought of any fall as a death fall...

A good sign you should spend more time seconding competent trad leaders.

It's how the ones who lived learned.

Don't ever let people "egg you on" into doing a lead. The fact that some people did this is evidence that they are inexperienced. The desire to lead things has to be totally self-generated. Trad leading is dangerous, and there are problems enough with it as it is without allowing social pressures from people who are either clueless or malevolent to come into play.

I don't want to start a fight Greg, and this is pretty far OT now, but I'm not changing my observations either. What's done is done, and nothing happened, so everyone appears to have been "right." But by your own account you were marginal, which means the judgements of your friends were questionable at best. If you happened to fall on one of the one-in-four pieces that were not good, you might be writing a very different story here. If you could write.

Sport and gym climbing make climbing at and beyond one's limit an everyday affair, but it is a good idea to dial it back when you are just learning the protection game and not allow yourself to get into marginal situations in which you go for it and hope the protection does its job.

I don't think your friends should have been egging you on, I don't think you should have let them do that to you, and I think you should have backed off before you got as marginal as your description suggests. Making a "no-quitter" virtue of what is objectively bad decision-making isn't a great formula for a long climbing career. Experienced climbers quit all the time, and come back when the time is right. That's what "not quitting" is about in the trad climbing game. Take the long view, my friend. The rock will be there another day. Your goal is to still be around and functional when that day arrives.

Please understand I have no axe to grind here, and am not trying to occupy some holier-than-thou position. I've made hundreds of mistakes myself, some of which could easily have been fatal, and have been involved in the rescue and transport of quite a few people who made similar choices but were not as lucky as I was.

Take time to learn your craft well, and may you enjoy many years of climbing.

Greg Petliski wrote:He saw me climb that day, knew I could do it, and I did.

One more comment and I'll also let it go. If he didn't know you and hadn't actually climbed with you then he really was in no position to make such a judgment call just because he saw you climb.

Folks "egg" each other on all the time to lead things

Whether its wise or not depends on the climb itself and the climber

Theres climbs where it doesnt matter if a person flails as its a continuos crack with bomber gear and clean falls

Then theres climbs which are runnout as shiet with serious injuries if u fall

The basic fact is that most of us need a good kick in the ass to try something which we fear and is likely either pretty safe (but were afraid) or not so safe but well withing out limits with a good margin (runnout grades below your max)

Without some serious self determination, or some friendly "egging" many of us wouldnt progress too much

Now one things that probably isnt a good thing is to "egg" folks to solo

;)

I would completely disagree with your entire comment. When someone doesn't have the requisite experience with trad gear from seconding competent leaders then any such 'egging on' is perilous regardless of the route or protection potential. And any decision around self-taught leading should be entirely internally driven.

I never said this particular "example" was "wise"

Simply folks "egg" each other all the time

As to the "seconding" many pitches things ... Its a great idea ...

Unfortunately it doesnt happen for a large amount of new trad leaders up here ...

The best one can hope for is that they take a course, get some supervised leads and perhaps follow a few leads ... But not too many "experienced" climber is willing to take out a newbie (unless they r hawt or climb hard sport)

Just as often its someone who had a friend show him/her some basic placements, or they learned off youtube/books ... And then they bought a rack and jumped on the sharp end

We can rant about it all day on da intrawebz, but unless yr always willing to take out and teach tons of newbs climbers .... Its all a bit hypocritical

There what we DEMAND happen on da intrawebz ... And what goes on in the real world

;)

Greg Petliski wrote: ...That lead was easy because personally, I feel a lot more secure in a crack (the Bong 5.4) than I do on a face like Rhododendron.

Last time I climbed it, Rhododendron was still a crack.

Greg Petliski wrote:...even though what I did is directly in line with how all the dudes in the 1960s went up. "Do as I say, not as I do" is the attitude...

Speaking for myself in the 70's I can't think of anyone I knew or met who jumped on shit without being fairly confident in their pro. I know plenty including myself who jumped on all kinds of routes without a clue as to whether we could get up them or not, but we always had a pretty good feel for the quality of our pro.

The idea you can substitute raw climbing ability for confidence in the quality of your pro is not a particularly healthy approach to learning trad.

Jon Clark wrote: You're paraphrasing both Watts and Hong and I'd agree up to a point. However, I do think that sentiment grossly generalizes a hard earned mastery (or even proficiency for that matter) of crack technique. Both those guys also happen to be outstanding climbers. I've climbed quite a few cracks and don't really think they are painful save for a move here or there. I'm generally out of position in these instances. Out of curiosity what do you consider a hard crack?

Yep. Probably Petro and Candelaria too. Some where in the 5.12 range.

Greg Petliski wrote: Ok. As someone else stated, if you want to take me up and teach me, I am there, I will even carry all your gear! But otherwise, meh to you. I understand first and foremost that Im as new as can be to all this, and that its better to sit back and listen than to run my mouth. But I am listening, just not to you. Im listening to the folks I meet who are just as experienced as you but have a different attitude towards it, one that I jam better with (think Vulgarians vs Appies, and which do you think you sound like right now? You can only lead if you have followed THIS many routes!). And Ill go you one further, with a quote from Steve Roper "Old fuddy duddies had all these rules, you cant climb a certain thing unless youre a qualified leader, nobody wanted to have fun, we said fuck this." And from Yvon: "Stole some ropes from the telephone company, no harnesses, you put the rope around your waist. It was character building."

You remind me of someone I need to call. I lost my shit because all of the dumb shit he does on top of the fact he doesn't take criticism well. Dude has lots of talent and unbelievable lead head but thinks advice given is condescending or a holy than thou lecture. We were a good match though.

I'll be Keene if you want someone to check your placements. I should have some time Thursday afternoon.

Greg Petliski wrote: But I am listening, just not to you. I'm listening to the folks I meet who are just as experienced as you but have a different attitude towards it, one that I jam better with (think Vulgarians vs Appies, and which do you think you sound like right now? You can only lead if you have followed THIS many routes!).

Oh fer god's sake. You don't have a clue what the Vulgarian/Appie conflict was like or was about. It had nothing to do with giving well-intended advice by people who would like to see you prosper. You're getting observations and suggestions based on your own descriptions of what you did, not hard and fast generic rules enforced by a group actually in control of the climbing scene.

As for the Vulgarians, I got seriously bawled out by Vulgarians who thought I was climbing dangerously, and I was climbing a hell of a lot better and harder than you are at this point. They weren't promulgating fuddy-duddy rules, they were giving me the benefit of hard-won experience, and they probably saved my life.

Greg Petliski wrote: And I'll go you one further, with a quote from Steve Roper "Old fuddy duddies had all these rules, you can't climb a certain thing unless youre a qualified leader, nobody wanted to have fun, we said fuck this." And from Yvon: "Stole some ropes from the telephone company, no harnesses, you put the rope around your waist. It was character building."

Folks who survive dangerous beginnings always have a certain nostalgia for those days of naivete and stupidity, a luxury they get to enjoy because their luck was good. And you seem to be saying, "All these famous guys started out doing stupid and dangerous things, so that's they way I should start out too."

Well, it might work for you as it did for them. It seems to be surprisingly hard for people to kill themselves climbing, but for alternative outcomes, have a look at Accidents in American Mountaineering.

Greg Petliski wrote: I guess the difference between me and that guy you know is that I dont think I have lots of talent! But youre right, I dont take criticism well. I try, but I have to try harder. Im currently cleaning up/moving out/closing on my late father's house, but will be free again in late September if your offer still stands then.

Haha.. Just the self taught part. Well and the he did it and lived so I can do that way too. I've never given you advice so I don't how that would go. I would imagine you take in knowledge just fine. I'm a totally different than the persona I play on MP.

I'll probably be a little closer in September. I would like to meet up with a friend in Gardiner so I'll let you know when..

Okay so I was enjoying reading this thoughtful thread until the Rhododendron diversion and now I have to pile on just a bit.

Greg please don't be offended-- no one wants to discourage you, but no one wants to see you die, either.

Rgold and healyje reacted the way they did because they know Rhododendron the way that I do. It is a climb that takes 100 % bomber gear the entire length of the pitch. It is a great early lead because you can place good gear literally anywhere. This is a rarity in the Gunks.

So when I read that you lacked faith in your placements-- that raised alarm bells for me, and I'm sure it did for the others as well. If you're not getting great placements on Rhododendron then you don't belong there. You should work on your placements on the ground and then try a climb that is super easy like Three Pines or Easy V or Northern Pillar and work on getting placements that are just as solid as you got on the ground, but while climbing. Once you have that licked, then start to move up the difficulty ladder.

I have no doubt you can do the moves on Rhododendron. Thus you "can do it," and you did. But the way you've written about the experience makes me worry for you, and that's why I'm responding here. Working on your gear placements now will make you safer and will ultimately make it much easier for you to move up the grade ladder.

I'm not dictating you do anything at all. Feel free to ignore me and others.

Its the new leader who has absolute confidence in his gear placements that i would be much more worried about

Being nervous about well place bomber gear is not uncommon on yr first few trad leads ...

Just saying

;)

bearbreeder wrote:Its the new leader who has absolute confidence in his gear placements that i would be much more worried about Being nervous about well place bomber gear is not uncommon on yr first few trad leads ... Just saying ;)

It's not about the level of confidence, its about what that confidence is based on and their general level of self-awareness.

Well no one here was there to watch the climb or follow up to check the gear

Ive known plenty of folks that felt very nervous on their first few leads ... And their gear was perfectly fine

And ive known new leaders who proudly proclaim their gear is bomber and it turned out to be total shiet

Were all here lambasting something that none of us witnessed ...

To be blunt if we were really concerned about new leaders we would be spending our time taking tons of newbs under our wings and making sure they get the "proper" instructions

The reality is that were sitting around here grumbling about what folks should or should not do ... And arguing about the "proper way" to learn

Every one whose climber a bit and pushed themselves has done stuff that perhaps isnt the best or wisest ... Thats reality, not da intrawebz

On MP were all perfect climbers

;)