New bolts at Crow Hill

Perfect example of silly climbing rules;) and 1st world problems....

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Perfect example of silly climbing rules;) and 1st world problems....

"1st world problems" is my nomination for the most idiotic phrase used on MP.

Obviously nothing about Crow Hill matters since not a single starving Ebola victim can afford to fly to Massachusetts and onsight Dune.

The world needs scary crags.
Not even remotely a local but I vote chop the bolts.
Replace the tat, put in decent TR anchors.
Bolts aren't evil, but need to be in the right places.

DavidLG wrote:After all you do not have to clip them when leading the route if you don't think they should be there.

Why do people still say this nonsense? Their presence by themselves drastically change the commitment level of any climb.

Don't clip them, just stare at them.

1st world problems" is my nomination for the most idiotic phrase used on MP.
Really?

You obviously have issues...

I know nothing of Crow hill or the history of the climb. Therfore I do not have a solid opinion on whether or not the bolts in question are good or bad. I do know climbing rules are silly and subject to change at any whim of those imposing them.

BTW I subject the public to my own silly climbing rules regarding the routes that I put up. And yes these are fairly insignificant 1st world problems.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:1st world problems" is my nomination for the most idiotic phrase used on MP. Really? You obviously have issues...

Yes, but since they are 1st world issues they don't matter in the slightest.

"Just don't clip the bolts" is right up there in the annals of idiocy.

As is "you left your draws out so you should expect to have them stolen"

Regardless, thanks Nick for putting up routes. My snarkiness notwithstanding, I really do appreciate your efforts, even if I never get a chance to climb your routes.

What's your nomination?

This thread is doomed anyway. The choppers will prevail, hopefully doing a good patch job. The bolters will get tired of buying bolts and anchors that don't last for long on the crag. In the long run, the choppers need to show younger climbers that scary small crags are worth preserving as such. The usual arguments that new climbers are cowards, etc are not adequate. Not all new climbers are interested in adventure. But some are. Find those climbers, show them what's valuable and the future is preserved.

Luc wrote: Why do people still say this nonsense? Their presence by themselves drastically change the commitment level of any climb. Don't clip them, just stare at them.

And the above nonsense is usually stated by those who are scared and not capable of by passing the bolts. Yes, it does create 2 climbs in the same spot, one where bolder and better skilled climbers can lead with all gear and one for those developing their skills at that level and need the bolts. Is that such a bad thing???? I regularly go past bolts on mixed routes when I feel in control but clip bolts when I don't. I am not saying the rules are right or wrong just ego driven. I guess you would rather have the route F#$$ up with a bad removal job than leave them. Nick is so right when he says rules are in general silly, they are only pertinent to those who make them up.

David, yes I agree they should be removed correctly when(if) they'll be removed. This is my opinion, I'm not a local, I have zero say in the matter.

I was generalizing that allowing the continued presence of retro-bolts with the excuse of "just don't clip them" gives fly by night retro-bolter excuses to add more fixed gear where there was none.

I think a test piece is just that, a test piece. Trad climbing is not an elimination game.

And yes, I can't climb at that level but I'm in complete awe of climbers that will put their abilities, both physical and mental to the challenge.

Now if this happened in a grid bolted sport climbing venue, the local ethics might sway the other way as to retro-bolting.

Thats a load of hogwash. a bolt changes everything. There is no way you can avoid the fact that safety is a simple clip away.
Most times it is better to have a reasonably safe climb that people enjoy.
When you have a good solid base of the climbs that get climbed then its also good to have one or two scare fests for the young and stupid to play on. Of course the same challenges can be met by free soloing which is a lot less work than wanken around on crap gear that's not going to save you anyways;)
Yesterday my much younger/stronger partner got on a climb that we know is R and suspect is X rated and that it's some kind of 10?. We think it was done by Chris Elms 30 years ago? I suggested that we climb the G rated route next to it as a warm up and then rap the route to have a look. My partner subjects himself to more stupid climbing rules than I do so we passed on the inspection. He did get up the 1st pitch. Once the gear petered out the going slowed down considerably. He had pulled through an overlap that was irreversibly. A fall would have been very serious. There was no bolt to pretend to ignore. It took several hours to get the last 30ft to the belay. The belay itself sucked. Old rusty pins behind a rotten block. By the time i Cleaned the good gear below the overlap I then got to follow the hard move with big swing possible and no gear worth a crap that would keep me from shock loading the crappy belay and sending both of us 100ft to our deaths. It's actually pretty cool and might be reasonable with a good bolted belay.

Hi Nick,
If your 1st line is refering to something I said, it is an incorrect conclusion. I never said it wouldn't change the 2nd original climb, it was stated that it was originally done with bolts by another poster. My original post was about if the bolts could not be removed correctly which might happen with glue in bolts etc. then we should look at it in the best possible light.
The big question is who put up the bolts. If it was done by the FA or with their permission who originally climbed it on bolts then what ethic prevails? The FA ethic which would mean they stay or the new ethic of no bolts at Crow Hill??? Again rules are only meaningful to those who create them and the followers who buy into them. The English once had rules about this country but could not get buy in from the locals and we know how that ended with new name USA and new government. Maybe the only rules that count are the ones where people have enough force to make them applicable. Anyway you cut it when it pertains to climbing they seem insignifcant and silly compared to other world issues.
I do hope that in the end the Crow Hill dilema ends somewhat amicably to all who have a vested interest.

I wa simply refering to the old line " just don't clip it if you don't like it." that one simply has no basis in reality. the bolt or lack there of changes everything.

That being said most of the time I am pro bolt except when I am not.
silly / stupid climbing rules;)

I'm all for properly bolting anchors and raps (where needed)

I am all for good protecting bolts and good rap anchors where needed. the problem arises when trying to decide who gets to make the call that they are needed;)
Silly climbing rulze;)

When tough guys act dramatic and romantic, I can't tell if it's ironic or hypocritical. Just free solo that shit!

No tough guy here. I do feel though that it is better to feed your rat soloing than it is to put up stupid dangerous routes and then play the ego trip not allowing a retro bolt so everyone has to play the game by your rules or not play at all.

Crow Hill was used by the US Army for training during WWII and prior to that, there's records of it being climbed by Native Americans. With that being said, the FA was probably done by a member of the Mohegan Indian Tribe while wearing moccasins and dry tooling with a tomahawk in search for a peaceful place to smoke his peace pipe.

I'm sure if you ask ken nichols, he climbed it before that, up hill both ways in the snow.

Therefore, I have a call in to the Mohegan Tribal Council for thier input on the matter.
I also asked if they were interested in putting slot machines above intertwine.

In the mean time, spend less time bitching online and get out and climb.

Just drove to the cliff and got skunkd by a thunderstorm....

Nick Goldsmith wrote:1st world problems" is my nomination for the most idiotic phrase used on MP. Really? You obviously have issues...

Transcends MP - is part of pop culture. Like the Pina Colada song - need to keep up or....

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Thats a load of hogwash. a bolt changes everything. There is no way you can avoid the fact that safty is a simple clip away. Most times it is better to have a reasonably safe climb that people enjoy. When you have a good solid base of the climbs that get climbed then its also good to have one or two scare fests for the young and stupid to play on. Of course the same challenges can be met by free soloing which is a lot less work than wanken arround on crap gear that's not going to save you anyways;) Yesterday my much younger/stronger partner got on a climb that we know is R and suspect is X rated and that it's some kind of 10?. We think it was done by Chris Elms 30 years ago? I suggested that we climb the G rated route next to it as a warm up and then rap the route to have a look. My partner subjects himself to more stupid climbing rules than I do so we passed on the inspection. He did get up the 1st pitch. Once the gear petered out the going slowed down considerably. He had pulled through an overlap that was irreversable. A fall would have been very serious. There was no bolt to pretend to ignore. It took several hours to get the last 30ft to the belay. The belay itself sucked. Old rusty pins behind a rotten block. By the time i Cleaned the good gear below the overlap I then got to follow the hard move with big swing possible and no gear worth a crap that would keep me from shock loading the crappy belay and sending both of us 100ft to our deaths. It's actually pretty cool and might be reasonable with a good bolted belay.

This is real climbing. What it is all about.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Just drove to the cliff and got skunkd by a thunderstorm....

I showed up after the t-storm (after a day of clipping bolts at Farley - how ironic...). The bolts - especially the 1st - don't seem to be in exactly the places you would want them for Dune. There did appear to be a hangerless stud to the left,more on the Dune line. This reinforces my belief that they were put in more as just a statement to arouse controversy.

It also reinforced my belief that they really have to go. I have never chopped a bolt in my life and I would do a crap job - maybe I should call KN - but I would lave my name an contact beta i I did. I would be nice if the equipper would step up and do the same with their thoughts.

couldn't really ANY climbing problem be a first world problem though? I mean really, you could go post in the x4 gear thread and just end every response with "first world problem". it's a rude way to belittle people involved in a conversation and nothing more.