Possible Reason Why "X4's are Failing".

My .75 x4 does that too if I don't lube it once or twice a year.

bearbreeder wrote: We held it both ways and tried to straighten the wire as well If you pulled VERY slowly and carefully the cam would retract, but the majority of the time if you simply took the cam off the harness and pulled it would collapse usually In a pumpy situation when yr fighting for gear you arent going to try to get the "perfect slow pull" The cam had never been fallen on and is pretty much new Whether you believe or not it doesnt matter to me ... The owner (not the guy pictured) retired the cam For those in squamish who want more info ask hevy and crazy al about the "pac man" cam ... We all had a go ;)

I have fallen on mine, I have kinked them a little in certain horizontalish placements. And I would have to put a ton of force to bend mine past about the normal 10-20% range of movement they normally have. Something had to have been done to it or something was defective with the metal??? If it has never been fallen on I would send it back to BD and have them take a look at it.

Dow Williams wrote: all of them, but this was an expensive new design rolled out during the age of internet experts

As spoken by one of the all-time internet experts. How do I know Dow's an expert? He's told everyone so!

How's spewing away on to Summitpost goin' for ya? Hope the hikers are enjoying the beta, sweet cheeks.

Don Ferris wrote:My .75 x4 does that too if I don't lube it once or twice a year.

aren't these cams only two years old? you've had to relube your cam four times since they came out and this has still happened?

Rob D. wrote: aren't these cams only two years old? you've had to relube your cam four times since they came out and this has still happened?

Eh, you're right, twice maybe three times. Lube em when they need it. Dirt works its way around the cam lobes and I between the trigger mechanism and the cable. Little WD40 to clean em out and they're good as new. Carful not to get the nylon for those worried about that type of thing.

I will say that in certain awkward positions the head of the .75 will rotate axially to the stem causing some placement issues. I've been pissed by it before but honestly it's one of my favorite pieces of protection. Just so bomb.

Don Ferris wrote: WD40

This might be part of your problem. Try something lighter like sewing machine oil. IMO WD has a tendency to collect gunk and dry up into a sticky dirty goo.

I just don't like the fact that the stem wire is that long on the .75. I don't have any, but have noticed it on similar cams like the master cams. The longer the stem wire, the more leverage the trigger has to bend it when being placed. My 0 and 00 Mastercam don't have the same flopiness that the #4 Mastercam does, and my aliens, however more floppy, don't have this problem until they're extremely dirty and difficult to retract. I clean my cams once every two or three years, when they start doing this.

It appears that the spring tension in the .75 is greater than the moment force required to bend the stem wire in this case. Sure if it's perfectly straight, then no problem, all that energy transfers straight into the wire. But a little bend in that wire and it collapses because the spring force in the cam lobes is greater than what's required to bend the stem.

Brassmonkey wrote: I still think that the head of the trigger is too long in length, gets pulled back by the cable which causes 2 lobes to self clean, and umbrella on the way out causing internet experts to conclude the cam was placed improperly.

The smaller cams can self clean but at a very severe angle. You'd need to place it in a vertical crack at more than 90° past the fall line. A cam that self cleans won't umbrella. The fact that the trigger pulls the lobes closed means it can't umbrella.

Mike Brady wrote: This might be part of your problem. Try something lighter like sewing machine oil. IMO WD has a tendency to collect gunk and dry up into a sticky dirty goo.

Yeah for sure. I do my best to blow it out but some remains. I'll check out that sewing machine oil.

Brassmonkey wrote:Its finicky, hard to clean, comes from the factory needing some work to use the full range of motion, kinks bad, has numerous documented scenarios where something went wrong and the cam broke, needs to be cleaned frequently........but these are the bomb!

Brass, that's not all true. Maybe they tend so collect dirt and get all gunked up resulting in a hard squeeze, but kinks bad, hard to clean and needs work from the factory? Come on. Sounds like anti-brand loyalty. Mine never had the lack of full range of motion as others have suggested but I have witnessed it on others cams before. As for the kinking, it's a non-issue. Don't think anyone has ever claimed the cable stem snapped. Simply just doesn't matter unless you just don't like how it looks. To be honest, I did not like them so much at first, compared to the c4s. After a while using them, though, they just accept way more placements and I feel are more bomb due to the flexy stem. Just set 'em and forget it. Of course that's just my opinion.

in .5 and .75 it would have been nice if they used the same gauge cable as CCH aliens in Orange, Purple, and Clear, which I never have a problem with the floppy-fop.

X4's aren't all bust but... I like some of mine with aliens for complementary small units. I know... Another alien guy. I can attest that every person I saw at the creek, lay-backing the same 5.10 all day. All had a new SHINING rack of C4's and X4's. I even saw X4 offsets on those same racks at the creek. All of those were cherry, paired up neatly with the appropriate BD racking biner. you know those ones that lose gate tension in 2-3 months.

SO anecdotally and nothing else, yeah noobs placing gear trying to get RAD on the TRADS are busting shit-loads of them.

I took a thirty footer on a 12+ in Zion Sandstone this year on a .2. I had a nest of smaller gear got a little over two body lengths up and peeled right the fuck off. I buried the cam placed it tight and slotted the unit in a constriction. Then I slung it long...surprise surprise plenty of rope out meant that it didn't umbrella or break. next time i might not be lucky or able to get an ideal placement.

I know i am lecturing the staff on this one but little gear needs to be ideal and to climb at you limit and get good gear takes time.

I don't see a point in getting a .5 or .75 X4, they have a C4 in that size and I don't see a need to get the flimsy X4 version.

I really wish they would redo alien's thumb trigger to be more like X4. If they did I would buy them over X4.

Brassmonkey wrote: I also own 4 other companies cams and recognize the strengths and weaknesses of each inherent in the various designs.

Just curious, since you have experience with a lot of companies products, what's your favorite cam and why? I'm only familiar with x4s, c4s, friends,dragons and tcus.

viper scale, when 1 or 2 of the lobes don't fit that's why they made x4's in .5/.75. that's why aliens were a big deal. that's why totem cams are a very big deal. Poddy irregular flaring placements happen quite a bit in the places i like to climb. smaller head widths can find purchase in the actually parallel sections of an otherwise shit placement. I would just use the set of totems i have if my partners didn't look at me like i was crazy or high when i racked them up for routes.

As said above one does still encounter placements where a purple c4 may not entirely fit but a red alien does perfectly ....

While its less common as the sizes go up ive encountered places there the green and red totem place very well, bit the equivalent same colour c4s wont fit or place poorly

The purple and green x4s fit well when ive used my partners in such placements ... However i find the trigger on the equvalent alien/totem to be much smoother and there more flexible to boot

Ive pointed out before that the longer metal sleeve on the x4 might kink the wire somewhat more on "unusual" placements ... While everyone proclaims on da intrawebs that you should never place cams perpendicular or facing downwards .... Sometimes a shallow crack, or downwards placement is all you have ...

The grey and above x4 has the siginificant advantage of being passively rated .... So they wont umbrella

Every cam has their pros and cons

;)

ViperScale wrote:I don't see a point in getting a .5 or .75 X4, they have a C4 in that size and I don't see a need to get the flimsy X4 version. I really wish they would redo alien's thumb trigger to be more like X4. If they did I would buy them over X4.

Have you ever tried to place a cam in a shallow vertical crack only to have the outer lobe sticking out? This is where a narrower head width comes in handy. It is not always needed, but definitely not a gimmick either.

also ballnuts...

Shelton Hatfield wrote: Have you ever tried to place a cam in a shallow vertical crack only to have the outer lobe sticking out? This is where a narrower head width comes in handy. It is not always needed, but definitely not a gimmick either.

I have had to aid up a flaring crack where only half my X4 .3 was in contact (still surprised it held to be honest). I generally throw tricams in cracks like that though so it normally isn't an issue, but I can see them being used in areas like that if you don't like tricams.

Dylan B. wrote: Yes, a corporation or other legally organized business entity can be a plaintiff in a defamation action, slander or libel. However, I suspect (but have not researched) that the business organization will be treated as a "public figure," and the defamatory statements as "matters of public interest." Thus, in addition to the standard elements of defamation, the plaintiff will be obligated to prove "actual malice," and there will be no presumption that the defamatory statement is false. These are difficult burdens to meet (particularly the "malice" element), and for that reason, I suspect, businesses are hesitant to bring defamation suits. And of course, as Mark points out, damages in this case will be difficult to demonstrate. Damages are not an element of a defamation action--you can bring suit for nominal damages. However, to be worth its while, Black Diamond would have to have some actual damages.

"Slander". Ha, I think that's usually just called a SLAPP lawsuit. There are few dumber things a company can do than sue for slander or under a SLAPP suit. They are far more likely to damage their reputation when everyone learns they are suing because some dude talked shit than they would sustain just allowing the dude to say as he does.

ViperScale wrote:I don't see a point in getting a .5 or .75 X4, they have a C4 in that size and I don't see a need to get the flimsy X4 version. I really wish they would redo alien's thumb trigger to be more like X4. If they did I would buy them over X4.

The new Fixe Evo Lite Aliens have an updated trigger design, similar to, say, Metolius Mastercams. Check them out.

Shelton Hatfield wrote: Have you ever tried to place a cam in a shallow vertical crack only to have the outer lobe sticking out? This is where a narrower head width comes in handy. It is not always needed, but definitely not a gimmick either.

Agreed. I tossed my .5s and one of my .75s for sale on here a long time ago because I saw how many more options I had for that range and head width in a red Alien. Almost an identical range, but more placement options. I carry one .75 and a red TCU to compliment it for narrow/poddy placements.