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Falling on a roof

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
thecmacattack wrote: I'm wrong, and you're reiterating MY point.. Make sure you keep that helmet on lol
No, YOUR point is that fall factor is the end all/be all only thing that is important in the safety of a fall. My point is that an increased fall factor doesn't matter in this case (and many cases) and is in fact preferable to a much more dangerous situation that having a lower fall factor creates, i.e. smashing into the wall at a much higher velocity.
thecmacattack · · Denver, Colorado · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 30

Well i'm not disagreeing with you, there are always many important factors to consider while climbing. My point was increasing slack increases the fall factor, which it does. Which takes me to my original comment where i suggested to use a runner to decrease the "whipper" potential that seems to be the core issue here.

So no, DO NOT USE EXTRA SLACK.

use a runner in this instance, or the other recommendations i gave if those are possible.

I want to reinforce that keyonnece or whatever his name is, is incorrect in this instance. despite his apparent experience in "smashing his head at high velocity."

Leify Guy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 367

kennoyce is right, when you're on a roof and climbing past your protection, if your belayer has you tight, the second you fall you will start swinging which will result in you hitting the wall at a faster speed, if your belayer has some slack in the system this grants you time to fall down first before starting your swing, thus reducing the speed at which you hit the wall.

Don't believe me? Go to the Gym, climb a vertical wall into a roof, only clip one draw in the roof, climb three past it, and take a couple falls testing this, have your belayer keep you tight for the first one, and then have them introduce slack into the system for the second fall, I can guarantee you'll swing a lot harder into the wall when your belayer doesn't give you a little extra slack.

Don't want to try it yourself? Then take my word for it, I sprained both ankles due there being no slack in the system when I fell in a situation described above. I had taken the same fall before, but with a different belayer and was fine the first time.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
David Tennant wrote:I think this stick figure drawing could show the difference.
It actually does not... w/ a roof over a vertical face, you have the same horizontal swinging momentum to absorb either way. Friction & air resistance help somewhat in the latter case, but that's not illustrated. If you are falling onto an overhanging face, however, extra slack helps (& conversely, if you are swinging into a slabby face, it'll make the matter worse).
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
thecmacattack wrote:I want to reinforce that keyonnece or whatever his name is, is incorrect in this instance. despite his apparent experience in "smashing his head at high velocity."
Nope, you're still wrong, and BTW, putting a longer runner will increase the fall factor the same way that having extra slack out will. With extra slack there is extra rope out so you fall further onto the extra rope, with a longer runner there is the same amount of rope out, but you fall farther because you are higher above the point that the rope catches, so in reality, for the same fall length it is preferable to have more slack than a longer runner due to the fact that there is more rope out to absorb the fall thereby lessening the fall factor.
Derek Jf · · Northeast · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 335
David Tennant wrote:I think this stick figure drawing could show the difference.... Eds. Realized that the bolt should have been on the roof, but the idea is the same.
I demand another scientific experiment at the cost and well being of stick figure man!
IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE, RE-DRAW! RE-DRAW!!!!
Leify Guy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 367
thecmacattack wrote:Well i'm not disagreeing with you, there are always many important factors to consider while climbing. My point was increasing slack increases the fall factor, which it does. Which takes me to my original comment where i suggested to use a runner to decrease the "whipper" potential that seems to be the core issue here. So no, DO NOT USE EXTRA SLACK. use a runner in this instance, or the other recommendations i gave if those are possible. I want to reinforce that keyonnece or whatever his name is, is incorrect in this instance. despite his apparent experience in "smashing his head at high velocity."
Wrong... I'd rather have extra slack in the system myself...
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Leif E wrote:Don't believe me? Go to the Gym, climb a vertical wall into a roof, only clip one draw in the roof, climb three past it, and take a couple falls testing this, have your belayer keep you tight for the first one, and then have them introduce slack into the system for the second fall, I can guarantee you'll swing a lot harder into the wall when your belayer doesn't give you a little extra slack.
Been there, done that (not deliberately). It only gives you more reaction time, you'll still end up swinging into the wall HARD.
Hamilton Kibbe · · Somerville, MA · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 71

An example

1. Clip a bolt at the lip of the roof
2. Climb above it so that the distance between the bolt and the attachment point on your harness is the same distance as the distance from your teeth to the harness attachment point.
3. Schedule an apointment with your reconstructive dentistry specialist.
4. Fall.

Ask yourself if you want your rope tight when you fall, or if you can afford the extra fall factor created by your belayer giving you an extra few feet of slack.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Matthew Albrecht wrote:Hi all, The other day I was working a route on a roof and fell while trying to pull a feet-first move. I had clipped the first draw on the roof, but when I fell, I swung back to the wall and because I was climbing feet first, I hit the rock head first. My belayer weighs 50 lbs less than me so it was a pretty soft catch and I didn't seriously hurt anything (just a bump and a headache), but I was hoping you all could help me figure out how to avoid the situation in the future. I know I hadn't backstepped the rope, I just couldn't twist around in time to hit the wall with my feet. Is this an unavoidable risk when pulling a feet-first move or is there a safe way to fall? Thanks!
Could you hang a long draw on the next bolt past the roof and clip that before going feet first?
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
thecmacattack wrote:http://www.climbing.com/skill/essential-skills-be-a-better-belayer/ Don’t feed out extra slack. This results in a harder catch because it increases the fall factor. If a climber takes a 10-foot fall with 20 feet of rope in the system, the fall factor is 0.5. If the belayer includes an extra five feet of slack (15-foot fall, 25 feet of rope in the system), the fall factor increases to 0.6, resulting in a harder catch (increased maximum force). Only give extra slack to make sure the climber clears an obstacle.
This is true but misapplied to the OP. A slightly harsher fall is a minor penalty for not hitting the rock. Hello?
Leify Guy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 367
reboot wrote: Been there, done that (not deliberately). It only gives you more reaction time, you'll still end up swinging into the wall HARD.
You might still swing in hard, but based on my experience, the extra slack puts you more underneath where you're swinging from when you actually start to swing, thus slowing down your swing (even if only a little bit, anything helps in this situation).
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
reboot wrote: Been there, done that (not deliberately). It only gives you more reaction time, you'll still end up swinging into the wall HARD.
reboot, I think you're just focused on the stick picture which does not accurately represent what is being discussed in this thread. In the case of the stick figure drawing, yeah, you're screwed either way, but in a case where there is a bolt in the roof that you have clipped, you are much better off with more slack in the system (as long as the roof isn't above a slab, ledge, or the ground that you will end up landing on because of the extra slack).
thecmacattack · · Denver, Colorado · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 30

I'm trying to think of a way to describe the amount of slack out in the system.

because i'm not saying you should keep it tight, because i dont ever belay with a "tight" system.
I almost always have a "healthy" belly on the rope. for kind of the same reason that auto-lock belay devices shouldn't be used while catching a trad fall. You need a little bit of cushion.

but i'm not going to let my leader get a head of steam behind him with a bunch of rope out while he's falling toward a wall.

I think the terms we're using are all a bit relative. so i'm done with this conversation.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Leif E wrote: You might still swing in hard, but based on my experience, the extra slack puts you more underneath where you're swinging from when you actually start to swing, thus slowing down your swing (even if only a little bit, anything helps in this situation).
Which is why I said it gives you more reaction time. You can reorient the body & easily spot a point of contact. With enough horizontal offset though, you'll be fucked either way.
Derek Jf · · Northeast · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 335

.....does no one else care about stick figure guy? LOOK at the runout and last piece of protection.. the bad belayer.. the fall factor he experienced. twice! someone get this guy a beer

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
kennoyce wrote: reboot, I think you're just focused on the stick picture which does not accurately represent what is being discussed in this thread.
I understand... I just don't want people to get the physics wrong. There was a video of a world cup competitor breaking her wrist on one of those tiered roof route. The belayer gave her a pretty soft catch, although not enough to clear the next roof tier. I'm not sure banning the grigri (as the result of the incident) for ifsc climbing is really the answer, seems those types of terrain are just dangerous.
curt86iroc · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 274
Don Ferris wrote:Helmet would lessen the pain.
x2
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
Eric Engberg wrote:More slack does NOT equal a soft catch. Perpetuating this myth is irresponsible.
You are correct. But nobody said that. At least when you posted. But we are talking about one example where extra slack may be of a benefit.
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
reboot wrote: I understand... I just don't want people to get the physics wrong. There was a video of a world cup competitor breaking her wrist on one of those tiered roof route. The belayer gave her a pretty soft catch, although not enough to clear the next roof tier. I'm not sure banning the grigri (as the result of the incident) for ifsc climbing is really the answer, seems those types of terrain are just dangerous.
Yep, I agree with everything you posted, tiered roofs can certainly be dangerous terrain to be climbing through. The main take away from this thread needs to be that hitting things while falling is bad, so as a belayer, do everything you can to help your climber avoid hitting things when they fall.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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