Dirtbag existence vs. educated and employed

Bill Kirby wrote: Touting? Really?

My apology for misusing the word...

My experience is obviously different from yours, since I wouldn't expect someone financially successful to rent a room in my house (nothing wrong w/ where I live). It's great that you worked your way into a higher level position & even have your own business. But realize your example is made possible thru, besides your hard work, economic+population growth & your willingness to actually live in a non-outdoorsy town. I'm not sure you'd have had the same success starting 20 years later, given the stunted growth in Baltimore. We may have a lot of population growth in CO, but these types of trade are pretty competitive (there are plenty of hispanics willing to work for not a very good wage).

I think the moral of the story here is that there is no free lunch in this world, and every choice we make is a compromise. We all have to decide what we are willing and NOT willing to compromise in our lives. Nobody can make that decision for another person.

The reality is that everything is determined (or predetermined really) by luck.

"Vitam regit fortuna, non sapientia."

Bill Kirby wrote: I would wager a couple cans of cat food and a case of PBR that Iceman's a contractor. The headaches contractors have to go through during installation are engineers doing what they do these days.. Overdoing it. I'm enjoying the spray in this thread. This what I did and now I'm sitting pretty at 40.. Haha..

^^^This! I'm an engineer that now works for a contractor. I see their mistakes regularly, and I used to make the same ones, so I understand both sides. The real problem is egos on both sides.

My advice to the OP: The grass is always greener...

Bill Kirby wrote: I would think CO would be great place to be in a trade as so much is being built.

This. There are houses flying up so fast that if you don't have a job in CO right now, you really don't want one.

And as to the comment about "The OP having a degree" I know of a service call plumber that makes $120 an hour. He works maybe 4-5 hours a day at most and does whatever he wants, whenever he wants. He has been doing it for a while. His apprentice makes $30 an hour and takes most of the jobs. His apprentice has been working with him for 2-3 years now.

So if the object is to make money, a trade is much better because you can apply it in ANY state and a lot of countries, and with the same dedication and persistence you can make as much as any degree related job.

Tony B wrote: But in all seriousness, grammar has not been a big issue for the engineers I know. We also mispell everything.

Sigh... no takers.

Why is this even a thread?

Eliot Augusto wrote: And as to the comment about "The OP having a degree" I know of a service call plumber that makes $120 an hour. He works maybe 4-5 hours a day at most and does whatever he wants, whenever he wants. He has been doing it for a while. His apprentice makes $30 an hour and takes most of the jobs.

I think it is great to go into the trades and everyone needs to find the path that best suits them. However, I find comparisons like this to be a bit disingenuous. Gross business income =/= personal income.

Xam wrote: I think it is great to go into the trades and everyone needs to find the path that best suits them. However, I find comparisons like this to be a bit disingenuous. Net business income =/= personal income.

It's pretty close.. Plumbers hourly rate does not include materials which are marked up. A $500 water heater is $900 on the bill. Tools get paid off pretty quick so that leaves the van. The van money doesn't see income tax so.. Yea that plumber's making real close to $120/hour.

I stand corrected. When I worked as a independent 'contract' employee just after school, I had to pay a self-employment tax that was over and above what I pay now as a regular employee. Even though my nominal income was the same for both jobs, my actual personal income is much higher now as a regular employee. Like 25% higher. I assumed this was the same for most lines of work. I guess I was wrong.

Chris Schmidt wrote:Seems like a lot of people here are saying it isn't that difficult to find a happy medium between the 2. The reality for young folks in 2015 is that you pretty much have to choose between being a slave to your job or being one accident away from being bankrupt and fucked for years. If you can find a job that you love and has some flexibility then more power to you. My advice would be get a degree if your parents have already agreed to pay for it or if you can get scholarships. Otherwise figure out where you want to live before you start figuring out what you want to do for the rest of your life.

It isn't that hard just have to learn to manage your money. Something they don't teach in school and people royally screw up these days.

Greg Petliski wrote: To be fair the cost of living has continued to rise while wages have stayed stagnant over the past several decades. Stop blaming the poor for being poor.

I think Viper's saying work with what you got. If you make $2000/month live accordingly.

You're right though. You can't blame the poor for being poor cause they don't know any better. No one teaches them how to budget or save. Most waste money on $100 jeans, drugs, gambling or going out to the bar. Education would be the answer but no one wants to pay it.

Greg Petliski wrote: To be fair the cost of living has continued to rise while wages have stayed stagnant over the past several decades. Stop blaming the poor for being poor.

As if he were just talking about the poor? I've seen upper and middle class families blow it. Too much house, too many/expensive new cars, etc...
it is also noted that the cost of living IS increasing, but it is BELOW the government's targeted desired rate of increase.
Think that over for just a moment. Why do we want/need inflation? Who does it benefit and how?

The Federal reserve wants MORE inflation... and say what we have is not enough.

Bill Kirby wrote: It's pretty close.. Plumbers hourly rate does not include materials which are marked up. A $500 water heater is $900 on the bill. Tools get paid off pretty quick so that leaves the van. The van money doesn't see income tax so.. Yea that plumber's making real close to $120/hour.

Must be a Baltimore thing... I know many more DIYers than people willing to pay $400 for a water heater install. When my water heater broke it was in the summer & I'd already have a day trip planned. So I bought a water heater & move it down the crawl space w/ my housemate & gave him $100 to hook it up. He was pretty happy. When a buddy's broke, I helped him move the old one out of the basement & the new one in; he did the rest. Neither of us are that mechanically inclined & our houses are still standing. For anybody that can't exert >1KN force just by sitting down, it's kind of back breaking work to move a water heater by yourself. Still, I don't think he ever got a job paying him that much to replace a water heater.

As far as van money doesn't see income tax... well, it's still pretax money & cost of doing business. Yes, you have it better than the regular employed driving to work, but since you are both the employer & the employed, you pay twice the FICA tax & you have no worker's comp for, say, when you get a herniated disc. We are not even talking about paid vacation/holidays & the fact you can't actually bill 8 hours by working 8 hours. Also, my housemate has 2 vehicles b/c one of them is loaded w/ tools & what not, so that is real, additional expense.

So I did the engineering thing from a rather crap school and worked full time for several years as a dedicated weekend warrior. About a year ago I switched up to start my own business in a related field with a principle parameter being to keep the work load at a minimum so as to be able to dedicate the majority of my time to the climbing-bum scene and this is what I've gotten out of it;

1.A. Living in cities is bullshit: waking up everyday to go do a bunch of shit you don't really want to, sitting out a good day just to sit around the weekend because its raining, climbing predominately on plastic. Clearly first world problems, but with the weight of years they can feel pretty heavy.

2.A. Living in a car is bullshit; not being able to shower or clean your cloths when you want to, putting up with the associated social stigma, not having an oven, having to eat all the yogurt in the first 2 days and then eat your cereal with water or dry until the next provisions day. Again, these things sound like a small sacrifices, but when you're hiding from the rain in a cramped tent or van rereading the same book for the third time and eating dry raisin bran, you feel like a very small turd.

1.B. Being normal is really easy and nice: you get lots of time to spend with friends, you have access all of the amenities and comforts of the consumer world, you have easy access to the dating pool, plastic makes you strong fast and when you do get out on trips or weekends you'll have some arms with you.

2.B. I've climbed on real rock around 170 days out of the last 11 months. not the "a few pitches real-quick-like after work" kind of climbing but "I woke up next to the cliff/boulder/mountain had a cup of coffee, and climbed til' I felt like stopping" kind of climbing.

Weighing things in my mind I gotta say I'm not prepared to give up being a climbing bum,especially since I have a work situation that allows me to do it with health insurance and in (relative) comfort but its not something I'd be willing to burn bridges for.

Thats my experience, which is forcibly a great deal different from what yours will be regardless of the choices you make.
Go with your gut, theres no algorithm to show the line through the future that will cut towards the best possible outcome.
Whats sure is that there will be a lot of ups and downs, a great deal of joy and suffering, many moments of overwhelming solitude and friendship, and then it will all be over.
So wear a helmet and a condom, and not necessarily at the same time, use your judgement as to which times are appropriate for the one and the other, most of all enjoy yourself and try not to be an asshole.

reboot wrote: Must be a Baltimore thing... I know many more DIYers than people willing to pay $400 for a water heater install. When my water heater broke it was in the summer & I'd already have a day trip planned. So I bought a water heater & move it down the crawl space w/ my housemate & gave him $100 to hook it up. He was pretty happy. When a buddy's broke, I helped him move the old one out of the basement & the new one in; he did the rest. Neither of us are that mechanically inclined & our houses are still standing. For anybody that can't exert >1KN force just by sitting down, it's kind of back breaking work to move a water heater by yourself. Still, I don't think he ever got a job paying him that much to replace a water heater. As far as van money doesn't see income tax... well, it's still pretax money & cost of doing business. Yes, you have it better than the regular employed driving to work. On the other hand, my housemate has 2 vehicles b/c one of them is loaded w/ tools & what not, so that is real, additional expense.

I don't what to say. There's plenty of people who pay to have a water heater installed everywhere? It's not like Baltimore is the only place that has plumbers. As far as the van goes, yes the van has to be paid for. My point is after insurance, advertising, materials and the van that plumbers still making about $120/hour. I can believe your buddy hasn't made much coin. Trades aren't some magic job field to get into that automatically gets you a stable career and riches beyond your wildest dreams. If you can sell and manage you can do just well if not better than a college educated office type. Oh and you get to be outdoors a lot.

You should get a PhD in the sciences, work your way into a Post Doc at a good institution, be internationally recognised for your work, have a complete and rounded CV having contributed to all aspects of the job. Put almost 10 years hard slog into your work.

And then face little to no job prospects at the end of it.

Oh no, wait. Don't do that. That would be stupid.

Bill Kirby wrote: My point is after insurance, advertising, materials and the van that plumbers still making about $120/hour...Trades aren't some magic job field to get into that automatically gets you a stable career and riches beyond your wildest dreams.

$120/hr imply you can make $150K-$200K/yr if you do it full time, that's easily in the top 5%. The census bureau clocks plumbers @ $50K/yr median, still respectable. That's probably how much my housemate is pulling in right now, maybe a bit more. All I'm trying to say is let's have a more realistic expectation.

Bill Kirby wrote: Oh and you get to be outdoors a lot.

I'd think it's more outside than "outdoors", i.e., you aren't pouring concrete (maybe in China) or replacing a water heater on the hiking trail. That still may be great in spring/fall on calm days, but absolutely brutal in the dead of summer or winter (can you even do concrete work in the Maryland winter?) Besides, wouldn't you want to use the good weather days to go climbing instead?

reboot wrote: $120/hr imply you can make $150K-$200K/yr if you do it full time, that's easily in the top 5%. The census bureau clocks plumbers @ $50K/yr median, still respectable. That's probably how much my housemate is pulling in right now, maybe a bit more. All I'm trying to say is let's have a more realistic expectation. I'd think it's more outside than "outdoors", i.e., you aren't replacing a water heater on the hiking trail. That still may be great in spring/fall on calm days, but absolutely brutal in the dead of summer or winter. Still, wouldn't you want to use the good weather days to go climbing instead?

That plumber Eliot knows owns his own business. Plumbers that own their own business are in the top 5%. Who did you think was at the top? Evil Wall Street types? Haha.. A journeymen plumber does make about 50k. The master who owns his own small shop makes 150k. The big outfits, the kind you see on TV make twice or three times as much. Your buddy makes 50k+ and can't pay his rent? Sounds like a couple of my guys!

Outside all year is better than inside all year even on a hot day. Again plumbing isn't magic. It's not for everyone.

Me? Let's not use me for that statement. I can go out any day I want. The average guy who enjoys the outdoors and is looking for something that pays good and is steady I would say won't mind being outside everyday. That's the only minus now. I enjoyed checking the weather, loving nice days hating the crappy days. I think office lights are making me sad..

Bill Kirby wrote: That plumber Eliot knows owns his own business. Plumbers that own their own business are in the top 5%. Who did you think was at the top? Evil Wall Street types? Haha.. A journeymen plumber does make about 50k. The master who owns his own small shop makes 150k. The big outfits, the kind you see on TV make twice or three times as much.

I believe you...but again, those are the exceptions in your trade. You can be self-employed & replace a water heater. You don't need a shop. And you are not making $150K w/o employing a couple guys.

Bill Kirby wrote: Your buddy makes 50k+ and can't pay his rent? Sounds like a couple of my guys!

He does just fine now, even better that he has a serious gf, college educated, probably pulling $200K working for "the man". He wasn't pulling that during the recession, like people in a lot of other professions.