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Dirtbag existence vs. educated and employed

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
zekem wrote:Engineers aren't that great so don't worry about an education. Unless you learn from a mentor you've got a rough road ahead of you.
I have no formal education and I am an engineer...
Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061

Code monkeys are easily out-sourceable. Remember that, and take steps to avoid being expendable. In other words, find a niche that requires being on-site (or at least someone who can get to sites without undue time delays...guy living in Vegas can be anywhere in the US in the same day. Not so much for the guy living in Mumbai).

I've seen quite a few professions that were the hot ticket at one point, and are now commodity jobs rapidly leaving the country and the ones that remain are a race to the bottom. Pay that indian $15/hr to write C++, or a person in the USA 5-10x as much...no brainer if you are a CEO/CFO. Need that x-ray read? Why not send the imaging to India, gets there in fractions of a second and cost 1/10th.

I've found a niche that has multiple "moats". My job ain't getting outsourced, period. I've turned down multiple jobs at 50% more pay, because the risk of being out of work in 2-5 years isn't worth the extra money. I make plenty, and have security and benefits that far outweigh that extra bit of cash.

In my parents' generation, there was a clear, almost certain path to prosperity if you had intelligence and a decent work ethic. Those days are long gone, and my generation who started as cynical, have only had our cynicism validated as the US economy is looted via the 0.1%'ers

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71

Also if your record is clean consider government work as that cannot be "outsourced"

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Since we're talking about job security I would like to recommend a trade. Electricians, plumbers and HVAC techs make good money and are in demand.

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
Bill Kirby wrote: Since we're talking about job security I would like to recommend a trade. Electricians, plumbers and HVAC techs make good money and are in demand.
No offense but he has a degree...
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
gription wrote: No offense but he has a degree...
Haha.. I wasn't speaking to the OP. It seemed as though lots of posts were for others looking for a job that allows time for climbing. That said plenty of people get a degree then move on to something else. Electrical engineering degree could turn into a career as an electrician.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Bill Kirby wrote: Since we're talking about job security I would like to recommend a trade. Electricians, plumbers and HVAC techs make good money and are in demand.
They sure weren't during the economic downturn we just crawled out of...these trades still very much depend on the health of the construction industry.

It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to do something that's generally in demand that you are also good at. I kind of shudder whenever I hear people going into IT/computers w/o any experience or logical reasoning/mathematical incline.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
reboot wrote: They sure weren't during the economic downturn we just crawled out of...these trades still very much depend on the health of the construction industry.
If you're doing installs. Service calls are constant. Your AC breaks you fix it, your toilet clogs you fix it.

Even new construction is different for different areas. Washington DC has lots of money so I and others made out just fine. I would think CO would be great place to be in a trade as so much is being built.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Bill Kirby wrote: If you're doing installs. Service calls are constant. Your AC breaks you fix it, your toilet clogs you fix it.
Yes, but there were still a glut of them during the recession b/c a lot of the install guys can also fix shit. Experienced builders became Home Depot employees & the former HD employees became the unemployed. I have a housemate (that I'm trying to kick out) in this line of work & the differences were pretty significant. He had trouble paying rent during the downturn (besides having hard time finding work, the work available had some many people bidding on them that they were hardly worth the trouble) & now he's rolling in plenty of cash. At least he's realistic that he can't physically do this line of work to the usual retirement age.

It'd be foolish to think the up cycle will last. Really, if the barrier to entry isn't very high, it doesn't really matter if the job can be outsourced or not.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
reboot wrote: Yes, but there were still a glut of them during the recession b/c a lot of the install guys can also fix shit. Experienced builders became Home Depot employees & the former HD employees became the unemployed. I have a housemate (that I'm trying to kick out) in this line of work & the differences were pretty significant. He had trouble paying rent during the downturn (besides having hard time finding work, the work available had some many people bidding on them that they were hardly worth the trouble) & now he's rolling in plenty of cash. At least he's realistic that he can't physically do this line of work to the usual retirement age. It'd be foolish to think the up cycle will last. Really, if the barrier to entry isn't very high, it doesn't really matter if the job can be outsourced or not.
Must be the difference in areas or your personal experience. Good HVAC guys have no trouble finding work since the early 90s around here and many other places. Same with all trades.

I don't think I understand your barrier to entry comment. You saying that if you don't need much school the job isn't worth going into?
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Bill Kirby wrote: You saying that if you don't need much school the job isn't worth going into?
No, it's just that touting job security is a moot point, unless you are in a field where experience make you way more desirable (even then, you need to hope technology won't make the entire field obsolete or drastically reduce the required manpower). There have be numerous professions that were rolling in cash b/c of shortage at one point, but they tend to equalize or swing in the wrong direction over time. Going into a hot field isn't very different from buying into a hot market (i.e., wise to be avoided). On the other hand, some outsourced jobs are coming back as developing countries start to achieve economic (but not necessarily efficiency) parity.

We are in a rapidly evolving world & adaptability is probably as important of a trait as any for long term job security.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Touting? Really? I was thinking discussing but I guess this is Mountain Project and am disagreeing with someone.

Hey, maybe it's my personal experience that's clouding things. Hell, I've been in concrete for 20 years without being laid off. I dropped out of high school, started working as a laborer and then proceeded to work up to super. I partnered with the guy who hired me outta high school to start my own thing in 2006. 2008 was great as I had profits from my company to invest when stocks after the crash. I have friends who are doing well for themselves that are in trades. One guy lives in the Dacks and has a thriving contracting business. I guess it's me who hasn't seen any minus in learning a trade.

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349

Bill Kirby.... Cement man. Good on you, build things.

I was climbing and hanging with one of my Doctor friends a while back..... he was complaining that "I really dont make all that much money, my Lawyer and Insurance agent get most of it...."

He was telling me that "the BEST job would be a Hi-tension Line worker, they make like $65/hour, work tons of overtime and they have a great union, the job is so stressful that they want you to take time off when your not feeling IT. Just tell the union you need some time and its like "no problem, call us when you want to go back to work...."

I am an Official for International Level GoKart Racing. (part time, looking to do more when I retire from the Engineering life)

I meet a lot of "Rich Folks" you know the sort of people who can afford to spend $100,000/year on a "HOBBY" ........ Most of those guys are in the TRADES in a big way.

A painter? How about you know how to paint an entire Holiday Inn.

A tree trimmer? ..... You figure out how to move oak trees with out them dieing on you.... bingo, instant millionaire.

Cement man?.... you build big concrete parking structures, big paychecks for pulling that off.

Door Hanger?..... you own a company of 100 workers, work on big projects all over the USA.

I could go on and on but all of these guys KNOW how to Paint, Tree trim, cement and install doors.... they just took it to another level.

Not one of them has a college degree.

Life is what you make it.

But I do know a few life long Dirtbags (I hate that term) who have done OK for themselves..... heck having a few FA's on Himalayan mountains is priceless, I reckon.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

People will always try to outsource stuff to save money but alot of times in the long run they loose money. Company I work for was recently sold to another company. Their software is maintained by 30 person team (3/4 are outsourced) while on the other hand our side of the company which is making more money and has better software is being maintained by a 2 person team.

I watched our company before we were sold to them waste over 300k on outsourced software that was complete crap and we had to throw out (I blame the managers because they didn't know how to deal with outsourcing). I always laugh when someone spends a year trying to outsource a project spending over 100k on something we get back, throw away, and i rewrite from scratch in under a month.

Also degrees don't mean anything I have worked with way to many people who have a degree and can't do the job.

I do have a friend who was making a ton of money doing contract IT work making good money but got sick of it and hasn't worked in over a year. Worked well for me cause I got to work out taking some time off work on my trips out to CA to stop by his place and do some climbing.

Ashort · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 56

Yeah degree doesn't mean you know your stuff, it mainly means you know how to jump through hoops. Critical thinking and problem solving are hard things to teach, and are absolutely necessary in engineering. You either have it or you don't.

I think about it like climbing, some people are just not able to think critically given a problem they have never encountered. If they didn't see it in a book or learn it from a course/guide then they don't know what to do. You must be able to use the tools you have to get yourself out of a problem or situation. Same goes for engineering, you need to use a basis of theory to solve practical problem that you may not have encountered before.

Honestly if i were to do this whole thing over i would apprentice or go into trades, or maybe remote sensing.

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Em Cos wrote: Was that an ironic misuse of "your"? Or are you one of those folks living in a metaphorical glass house and haven't yet learned not to throw stones?
Knowing the author there, I just giggled and waited...
But in all seriousness, grammar has not been a big issue for the engineers I know. We also mispell everything.
Merlin · · Grand Junction · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 10
Will S wrote: In my parents' generation, there was a clear, almost certain path to prosperity if you had intelligence and a decent work ethic. Those days are long gone, and my generation who started as cynical, have only had our cynicism validated as the US economy is looted via the 0.1%'ers
No shit, 100% agree.

The newest generation of college attendees are mostly overly sensitive lambs headed for the slaughter. Whatever you do, keep your work ethic higher than everyone around you and stand out.
Chris Schmidt · · Fruita, CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 0

Seems like a lot of people here are saying it isn't that difficult to find a happy medium between the 2. The reality for young folks in 2015 is that you pretty much have to choose between being a slave to your job or being one accident away from being bankrupt and fucked for years. If you can find a job that you love and has some flexibility then more power to you.

My advice would be get a degree if your parents have already agreed to pay for it or if you can get scholarships. Otherwise figure out where you want to live before you start figuring out what you want to do for the rest of your life.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Guy Keesee wrote: I meet a lot of "Rich Folks" you know the sort of people who can afford to spend $100,000/year on a "HOBBY" ........ Most of those guys are in the TRADES in a big way.... they just took it to another level.
That's awesome, but you do realize these guys are the exception & not the rule? For every one that made it, 10-100 in the same trade work for them, and that almost no one will never get to that level (or even better than average)? When I worked at a large software company, the stories floated around weren't of the execs racing in GoKarts: they would ship their million dollar sports cars around the world, having public streets closed down for them to race on. If you are really good at something (for the above examples, it's actually their entrepreneurship), there are a lot of ways you can make it big, but that doesn't make it a good field to get into for the average person.
Zac St Jules · · New Hampshire · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 1,188

side point...

"Dirtbag existence" is such an annoying term.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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