Possible Reason Why "X4's are Failing".

I suspect there is a different reason for the alleged X4 failures. I think if we could take a poll and see who is using the X fours and who is using other micro cams as well as who is falling on micro cams we would find that most of the failures are from inexperienced climbers i.e. less than five years leading and falling on gear. I bet that most newer climbers that are buying micro cams are leaning towards BD because of their reputation and they're great marketing. These less experience climbers are more likely to make a poor placement or one that walks into a poor placement or going to yell take and cause the cams to rotate into a bad position. But if we were to look at climbers as a whole especially experience climbers they are using lots of other kinds of cams and also have a lot more experience. These more experience climbers are going to make better placements, extend when necessary and not post on the Internet when a bad placement fails. Just my theory. Take it for what it's worth.

I have aided through a move on a .3 X4 with only half the thing engaged on a flaring crack and it held np. I have have ripped one of them out of the wall on a 5.12 bolted route during an onsight. It wasn't a necessary piece but wasn't sure how good the hold was going to be and was pumped (should have gone ahead and clipped the bolt above me because the hold was really good just tired and it was overhanging) but I was already set on placing the cam as a middle piece between bolts. Turns out the spot I was planing to place it wasn't the best rock, It held me but when I tried to pull on it to get back on the wall it pushed the rock out and I dropped to the bolt below. Nothing wrong with the gear, if the rock had been better it would have held np. Hung from .4 and .3 X4s multi times on routes to rest, never taken any major falls more than 3-4 ft on them. They do kink a bit but so does anything else with wires like they have.

ViperScale wrote: . Hung from .4 and .3 X4s multi times on routes to rest, never taken any major falls more than 3-4 ft on them. They do kink a bit but so does anything else with wires like they have.

A bit of evidence to support my theory.

Greg D wrote: A bit of evidence to support my theory.

lol. i bet that one stings a bit

climbing friend,

You are going to do the dying.

Greg D wrote:I think if we could take a poll and see who is using the X fours and who is using other micro cams as well as who is falling on micro cams we would find that most of the failures are from inexperienced climbers i.e. less than five years leading and falling on gear.

Lets see,
-First fall I took on a micro-cam was on a Metolius TCU #0, 2 years leading, the flake I protected popped off (nearly hitting my belayer).
-2 years leading, taking repeated falls on a #1 and a #2 Quadcam (double ropes) while working a route, nothing moved.
-4 to 5 years, not many falls, quite a few takes on small cams.
-7 years, 5 footer on a .2 X4, no prob.

I've replaced all my Metolius TCU and Quadcams with C3s and X4s, I don't regret it and I've learned to play them on the tight fit too.

There is no slander in this thread. However, whether there is libel is worth debate, if you are in to such things. :)

So what cam did newbs blow apart before the x4s

;)

bearbreeder wrote:So what cam did newbs blow apart before the x4s ;)

all of them, but this was an expensive new design rolled out during the age of internet experts

bearbreeder wrote:So what cam did newbs blow apart before the x4s ;)

Aliens (I remember seeing the horror stories).
Old Metolius TCUs (#0-#00), where there's no way to know how cammed you are since the fittings on either side were hiding the cams, plug and pray.

mountainproject.com/v/10643…
mountainproject.com/v/malfu…
mountainproject.com/v/10585…
mountainproject.com/v/alien…
mountainproject.com/v/fixe-…

Luc wrote: Aliens (I remember seeing the horror stories). Old Metolius TCUs (#0-#00), where there's no way to know how cammed you are since the fittings on either side were hiding the cams, plug and pray. mountainproject.com/v/10643… mountainproject.com/v/malfu… mountainproject.com/v/10585… mountainproject.com/v/alien… mountainproject.com/v/fixe-…

The metolius grey and purple had issues with te cam stops breaking even simply cleaning em

The aliens had that whole coming apart thing ... And to be blunt they are still coming apart

The x4s will work finr if they are placed properly ... But then the wire itself has issues IMO

Unlike the softer alien/totem wire the kinks can affect the retraction ... And the deformation tends to stay

youtube.com/watch?v=iXbLZcp…

;)

bearbreeder wrote:So what cam did newbs blow apart before the x4s ;)

mountainproject.com/v/blown…

Dow Williams wrote: all of them, but this was an expensive new design rolled out during the age of internet experts

This is the perfect synopsis for this and all the other x4 threads :-)

rocknice2 wrote: mountainproject.com/v/blown…

I bent the axle of a purple metolius myself after eating too many cheezy poofs

Sometimes these cams just do blow apart ... Heres a fun example

coolclimbing.com/rockgearbr…

Of course with the new camalots lasting 10 years, it doesnt matter, disposable cams babiii !!!

Back to the original topic ... That chart is shiet especially for beginner leaders on small gear

;)

BD provides the same graphic for C4's.

What is confusing is that they show the limit of green at about 150, but then to the right they show a graphic of a cam in a crack that is placed at about 150 but include a skull and crossbones. It seems like the graphic should have a yellow zone.

part of the current political discussion involves comedians like Jerry Seinfeld, Bill Maher etc refusing to play college campuses because "yutes" have become too politically correct. They are taught to expect perfect conditions where none will ever exist, racial, religious or otherwise.

Same phenomenon in climbing...urban climbing "yutes" making the transition from the climbing gym to outdoors....looking for perfect conditions where none will ever exist, equipment, rock or otherwise.

youtube.com/watch?v=iXbLZcp…
bearbreeder, did I hear Hevy in the background at the end of that video clip commenting on BD's "shit cams"?

Shelton Hatfield wrote: bearbreeder, did I hear Hevy in the background at the end of that video clip commenting on BD's "shit cams"?

Never ask a brit about yankee cams

;)

Shelton Hatfield wrote: youtube.com/watch?v=iXbLZcp… bearbreeder, did I hear Hevy in the background at the end of that video clip commenting on BD's "shit cams"?

Look how he is holding the cam, it looks fake like he is trying to force it to do that. If he really was trying to use the cam he shouldn't have his entire thump in the loop (unless he is trying to use force to bend it)

Put your finger the proper way in the loop and collapse the cams and than put your finger completely in and try to collapse it. You will notice it is trying to bend it when your finger is completely in but not if only the tip of your thump is in.

Given the wire must have been weakened as well but since he is not pulling the trigger proper I am assuming this was done on purpose.

Some of the wires on my X4s are a little kinked (slightly bent to the sides from placements etc) but a completely weakened wire to the point where it is bending with a trigger pull isn't normal.

ViperScale wrote: Look how he is holding the cam, it looks fake like he is trying to force it to do that. If he really was trying to use the cam he shouldn't have his entire thump in the loop (unless he is trying to use force to bend it) Put your finger the proper way in the loop and collapse the cams and than put your finger completely in and try to collapse it. You will notice it is trying to bend it when your finger is completely in but not if only the tip of your thump is in. Given the wire must have been weakened as well but since he is not pulling the trigger proper I am assuming this was done on purpose. Some of the wires on my X4s are a little kinked (slightly bent to the sides from placements etc) but a completely weakened wire to the point where it is bending with a trigger pull isn't normal.

We held it both ways and tried to straighten the wire as well

If you pulled VERY slowly and carefully the cam would retract, but the majority of the time if you simply took the cam off the harness and pulled it would collapse usually

In a pumpy situation when yr fighting for gear you arent going to try to get the "perfect slow pull"

The cam had never been fallen on and is pretty much new

Whether you believe or not it doesnt matter to me ... The owner (not the guy pictured) retired the cam

For those in squamish who want more info ask hevy and crazy al about the "pac man" cam ... We all had a go

;)