Autoblock or Prusik

autoblock is easy as fuck so why not? I am for extending the rap just to keep things not so cluttered.

Patrick Shyvers wrote: For the ATC Guide it isn't really autoblock mode, because the key component to autoblock mode is the weighted strand pinching/trapping the brake strand into the toothed channel. His particular usage isn't all that dissimilar from normal rappelling, the main difference being the alignment/rotation of the ATC.

in his photo he has it in guide mode off the belay loop ... which means it effectively acts as an ascender

perhaps further clarification with an extra few photos is needed

;)

bearbreeder wrote: in his photo he has it in guide mode off the belay loop ... which means it effectively acts as an ascender perhaps further clarification with an extra few photos is needed ;)

No it is not guide mode.

For guide mode, the rope would have to be going the opposite way through the ATC: Rope going up to anchor would have to be coming out of downward side of device and brake rope upper side of device (up/down related to picture orientation). In that configuration, it would lock itself off completely under weight.

mountainhick wrote: No it is not guide mode. For guide mode, the rope would have to be going the opposite way through the ATC: Rope going up to anchor would have to be coming out of downward side of device and brake rope upper side of device (up/down related to picture orientation). In that configuration, it would lock itself off completely under weight.

Aha !!!

I was confused as im used to the right side being the brake side .... Perhaps some labelling on which strand is the brake might be useful?

Thats a very interesting rappel setup ... Off the bat though i can see that one would only be rapping in low friction mode witha single biner (unless u want to pop out 2 biners at the same time) ...Which might be an issue with thinner half ropes

Ill have to see how much friction one gets in that mode in the smart ... Note that its fairly standard to use 2 loaded biners as bars on <10mm ropes with a carabiner brake ... Insofar as "standard" for a little used techniques these days

My opinion though is that while im sure all these "popping" knot pass techniques work ... The standard knot pass is the one to learn as the setup is similar for ascension as well ... And you can set it up easily mid rap, unlike the "poppers" where one may need to know that theres a knot/coreshot before hand

Not to mention most of us dont like rapping on munters due to the twists

Theres a few ways to make the standard knot pasa easier ... Perhaps ill do a full post when im finished breeding bears

;)

rgold wrote: The opposite is true. Try both methods while free-hanging and see.

Fair enough, I'll try it at some point and see which one is easier.

Edit: So I just tried both methods in my garage with a BD Rocklock as the biner for the munter hitch and for the braking biner. At first, I couldn't see how to release the munter hitch while freehanging on the rope, then I figured it out: the only way you can release the munter as you described is if you set it up so the brake strands are on the gate side of the biner. With the way I like to set up the munter hitch (put the brake strands on the spine of the biner), it is impossible to pop the munter hitch off.

With the ATC Guide in "carabiner brake" mode while freehanging, I was able to get the biner out with a lot of effort. Obviously if I can unweight the rope even just for a moment, this becomes a non-issue.

So I agree it is easier to pop the munter out if you're freehanging, with the caveat that you must set up the munter with the brake strands on the gate side, which in my opinion is an inferior way to set up the munter.

Patrick Shyvers wrote:His particular usage isn't all that dissimilar from normal rappelling, the main difference being the alignment/rotation of the ATC.

You're right, it's really not all that different from normal rappelling. It works on the same principle as the carabiner brake. The rope takes the shape of the letter "C" in the ATC Guide, compare to the normal rappel setup where the rope takes the shape of "S" rotated 90 degrees. It gives less friction compared to the regular rappel setup, which is actually why I prefer this method because I rap a lot smoother with it especially with a below the device backup. For multi-pitch rappels, it also has less chance of dropping the belay device. The downside of this method is that it's harder to taking in slack. On low angle terrain with a regular rappel set up, I can pull myself up the rope for a short distance by yarding in slack. That's pretty much impossible to do with this method.

mountainhick wrote: No it is not guide mode. For guide mode, the rope would have to be going the opposite way through the ATC: Rope going up to anchor would have to be coming out of downward side of device and brake rope upper side of device (up/down related to picture orientation). In that configuration, it would lock itself off completely under weight.

Exactly. I figured people would be able to figure out that the rope going toward the top of the picture is to the anchor, and the rope going toward the bottom of the picture is the brake strand. Especially when I have a carabiner brake in the same orientation for comparison. Obviously I overestimated some people.

Scotch or scotch whiskey....

aikibujin wrote: Fair enough, I'll try it at some point and see which one is easier. Edit: So I just tried both methods in my garage with a BD Rocklock as the biner for the munter hitch and for the braking biner. At first, I couldn't see how to release the munter hitch while freehanging on the rope, then I figured it out: the only way you can release the munter as you described is if you set it up so the brake strands are on the gate side of the biner. With the way I like to set up the munter hitch (put the brake strands on the spine of the biner), it is impossible to pop the munter hitch off. With the ATC Guide in "carabiner brake" mode while freehanging, I was able to get the biner out with a lot of effort. Obviously if I can unweight the rope even just for a moment, this becomes a non-issue. So I agree it is easier to pop the munter out if you're freehanging, with the caveat that you must set up the munter with the brake strands on the gate side, which in my opinion is an inferior way to set up the munter. You're right, it's really not all that different from normal rappelling. It works on the same principle as the carabiner brake. The rope takes the shape of the letter "C" in the ATC Guide, compare to the normal rappel setup where the rope takes the shape of "S" rotated 90 degrees. It gives less friction compared to the regular rappel setup, which is actually why I prefer this method because I rap a lot smoother with it especially with a below the device backup. For multi-pitch rappels, it also has less chance of dropping the belay device. The downside of this method is that it's harder to taking in slack. On low angle terrain with a regular rappel set up, I can pull myself up the rope for a short distance by yarding in slack. That's pretty much impossible to do with this method. Exactly. I figured people would be able to figure out that the rope going toward the top of the picture is to the anchor, and the rope going toward the bottom of the picture is the brake strand. Especially when I have a carabiner brake in the same orientation for comparison. Obviously I overestimated some people.

Well i just tried ur method and while it works you do know that there is a very simple way you can do the same with without rapping in the way you described

In fact itll allow you to use either friction mode and secure BOTH the belay biner and ATC so you dont drop it ... And it works with a regular ATC ... And you can still boink up a bit to test the anchors before taking off the safety

Not to mentions folks are less likely to screw it up ...

Wait for it ....



Or



Vs (correct me if ive got this setup wrong)



Whether you use the way i pictured above or the way you describer you still need to UNWEIGHT the rope on a free hanging rap ...

Which means either u need to muscle yr way a bit or use a prussik leg loop

But i must thank you ... I had not considered rapping on an upside down guide mode device ... As limited as the mode may be (can only use one friction setting, cant boink up a bit, easier to screw up)

That was VERY interesting !!!

But its better to be more flexible and KISS ... Not to mention keep the same standard rap setup when yr cold, tired, wet, hungry and in the dark

or just learn and practice the standard knot pass (with a simple bearbreeding modification) which requires no muscle or unweighting (you can do even with an injured partner on a tandem rap) and which easily converts to ascending, doesnt twist the rope with a munter and requires no "preplanning" ... and is less complicated than some of the suggested methods to be blunt

Dontcha agree?

i do admit that yr rap method looks quite "cool" and perhaps all the "cool kids" at the crag who want to do something "different" will probably try it despite its limitations

;)

The reason I use the carabiner brake mode is not so I don't drop my device, that can be achieved simply by making a redundant attachment to the device. I also don't take my belay device off the locking biner when I'm setting up and breaking down my belay (and rappel) setup.

I use the biner brake mode because it gives me a much smoother rappel. Having less chance of dropping the device is just icing on the cake. Also, the amount of friction the biner brake mode provides can be adjusted by adding more braking biners like the real carabiner brake. As far as the argument that it's easier to mess up, that can be said about any technique when someone is unpracticed with it. I started rapping on this more than ten years ago after I had to rap six pitches with the real carabiner brake when my partner dropped his ATC. I found myself liking how smooth the biner brake raps and figured out this method to mimic the biner brake with my ATC Guide. At this point it is as familiar to me as the standard setup. I just rapped a totally freehanging 60-meter fixed line with it at 3 am while wearing a backpack with just one hour of sleep the day before. If I mess up then, I can just as easily mess up the standard setup.

If normal folks want a smooth rappel and not to drop their device ... Simply

- use their atc guide in low friction mode

- learn the method of putting the rope on and off the ATC without dropping it ... There is one

- if yr really worries then clip the keeper cord to something when rap

The real problem with yr method is the inability to boink up and test the system before taking off yr safety

Over and over again we see accidents where folks failed to test their system ... Especially on hanging stations, the ability to bump up and weight the rappel is pretty important

Now sure with biner brakes you need to be extra careful as its hard to boink up, so yr forced to do a check without weighting the anchor first .... But then most of us dont use biner brakes except in emergencies or for practice ... With good reason

Especially when yr cold, tired, hungry, wet and in the dark ... And perhaps with hands shaking ... The ability to easily test the rap prior is pretty important

Each to their own but i cant see any real advantage to yr method over standard setups ... And it had significant disadvantages

Remember folks to test the rap with yr weight before taking off the safety

;)

Regarding testing the rap set up with your weight before removing your tie-in (a.k.a., bump test):

I prefer to emphasize that a 100% visual is really the primary thing. Just like we do for the rap anchor itself. Or gear placed on lead.

For all those rap fatalities out there, there are some where the person rapping was in the habit of doing a bump test - or certainly partially weighted the rig - only to get ten or so feet from the anchor before fully weighting everything and then comes total failure.

The "bump test" should at best be considered a backup to a 100% visual.