Possible Reason Why "X4's are Failing".

BD cam placement range

Check what Black Diamond considers a green camming range.

Personally I consider that upper green range to be when the lobe flats form 90° angle and 120° to be the cautious point. BD has the green zone at about 150°, highly suspect.

The minimum range can go well into the caution range. At the min range the tips of the lobes can cross over slightly and still give you ample room for removal.

I think the Metolius range indicator is way more useful.

What do you consider to be the maximum angle for your cams placements?

The 6Ps: Proper Placement Prevents Piss Poor Performance

Placement is very subjective with a lot of variables. Are you saying all the forums and comments about X4's breaking is because they were placed outside of your rule of 120 and 150 degrees? I do not think that is the case.

With small cams you generally want to place em fairly snug

As there may be uneveness inside the crack and even a slight shift can open it up

Yr margin for placement errors is much less

That "range chart" above doesnt seem like the wisest practice for small cams

;)

Brendan Magee wrote:The 6Ps: Proper Placement Prevents Piss Poor Performance Placement is very subjective with a lot of variables. Are you saying all the forums and comments about X4's breaking is because they were placed outside of your rule of 120 and 150 degrees? I do not think that is the case.

Actually in solid rock there are not that many variables. I am saying that all those blown out X4's are because of user error. They were either placed at the upper limit of the range or they walked into a spot where they could open up more. In both cases it is user error. This is evident in the photos. They all had the lobe tips nicked and trigger wires broken from tipping out.

For the small cams (.1-.3) even the 90° angle is too much. I'd say an angle of 45° is about the max reliable zone.

Cracks are rarely perfectly parallel with the exception of a few places. In these imperfect cracks I look for a little pod that's slightly bigger than the crack around it. Then nestle the cam in there. This ensures that it won't walk into a larger opening.

As I understand, the most (if not all) X4 failures are of "umbrella cam shock load" type. Seems, those cams were set at perfect nut placements where no SLCD device w/out proper elongation should be placed. One sets an SLCD in a constriction and does not elongate it enough, keeps climbing, shakes the cam, it walks a bit, open, became umbrella, then climbers slips off of the wall, the umbrella'd cam is shock loaded, bang!

Pavel Burov wrote:As I understand, the most (if not all) X4 failures are of "umbrella cam shock load" type. bang!

The cam would fail [umbrella] even if it was loaded slowly.

rocknice2 wrote: The cam would fail [umbrella] even if it was loaded slowly.

I would only make that placement if it was all I had. It's obviously not the right side, and as close to being tipped out as it can get.

Your presumption is false and slanderous. Black Diamond X4 cams are not failing. There is no recall. They work and function as intended.

Dow Williams wrote:Your presumption is false and slanderous. Black Diamond X4 cams are not failing. There is no recall. They work and function as intended.

If you missed it, I said the failing is in the placement not the cams. Although I do think BD dropped the ball in their instructions.

Do you consider the upper limit of the green zone a well placed cam? A good placement? A bomber placement?
Even if it was a .5 X4 or an equivalent C4?

you might want to re-state your post...read it a few times and think about it...

it would be interesting to see a test like this on the X4s (which I own and use with confidence)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIAZ4DFyUNQ

All cams will hold well in perfect textbook placements on a test rig

Its how they fit in less than perfect placements or hold in sub optimal placements that differentiates one cam from another

;)

Dow Williams wrote:Your presumption is false and slanderous. Black Diamond X4 cams are not failing. There is no recall. They work and function as intended.

Sarcasm on-

BD should definitely sue. Not only would it be a great PR move, they could recoup the millions of dollars in damages that rocknice's post has caused.

Maybe you could file for them, in case they aren't clever enough to do it themselves or maybe everybody at BD is goofing off today and climbing?

Sarcasm off

Can you slander a company the way you can slander a person?

Hard to see how pulling out of a placement and umbrellaing isn't a fail, even if the fault of the user rather than the product.

Does a rope "fail" if you forgot to tie into it before climbing?

An improperly placed piece of protection gear (hex, nut, cam, etc), isn't "gear failure" (although it may be written that way in accident reports).
In medical terms it would be "off-label use"
;)

Matt N wrote:Does a rope "fail" if you forgot to tie into it before climbing? An improperly placed piece of protection gear (hex, nut, cam, etc), isn't "gear failure" (although it may be written that way in accident reports). In medical terms it would be "off-label use" ;)

Good point about the rope.

Off label use on the other hand might be a standard treatment.

Matt N wrote:Does a rope "fail" if you forgot to tie into it before climbing? An improperly placed piece of protection gear (hex, nut, cam, etc), isn't "gear failure" (although it may be written that way in accident reports). In medical terms it would be "off-label use" ;)

Not gear failure but placement failure.

Now Maybe BD will visit Rocknice2 and confiscate all the BD gear he owns and ban him from acquiring more ;^P

Dow Williams wrote:you might want to re-state your post...read it a few times and think about it...

rocknice2 wrote:I am saying that all those blown out X4's are because of user error. They were either placed at the upper limit of the range or they walked into a spot where they could open up more. In both cases it is user error.

I titled it this way to respond to all the "X4's are Failing" threads.

Luc wrote:Now Maybe BD will visit Rocknice2 and confiscate all the BD gear he owns and ban him from acquiring more ;^P

I'll give BD my gear when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Fair point.

I have fallen on my .3 more than any other cam, probably over 20 times. It is also the only cam I have ripped (I placed it, knew it was JUNK, but was scared and pumped so I clipped it anyway, but I was waaaay above the ground and had great gear below it so all was well).

I would guess that people are ripping them because they are so tiny and flexible, you able (or tempted) to shove them in when you should either place a nut or keep climbing a few more moves through the hard stuff. I have also spent more time getting this cam unstuck than probably all the others combined. This has been my experience, and they are my favorite cam on earth.

my x4

Mark E Dixon wrote:Can you slander a company the way you can slander a person?

Pretty sure slander against a company is still slander.

Are X4s designed to hold a factor 2 fall? If not I'd guess this is the primary failure mode.