Dirtbag existence vs. educated and employed

I am an engineer that is also a lawyer, so, I guess you should take that into account, whatever it's supposed to mean (apparently only bad things).

I found climbing really late in life, so there was never really the option to dirtbag and get really good. I do really like the idea of it. It seems like a free and exciting existence.

I came from an extremely modest background and used education to get out of the situation I was in. I am thankful for my dumb luck in picking fields that are quite employable, but I often feel like I missed my chance to have a carefree youth.

Kids are another factor. I knew I wanted them, and I didn't want them growing up as financially insecure as I did. It basically locked me into the reality of being an earner.

So, those were my choices, here are what I consider to be the pros and cons:

Pros:
I can travel and climb anywhere in the world with the vacation I do have.
I have a family that makes me happy, and we are financially secure.
I never even question things like new equipment, gym memberships, weekend climbing getaways, etc. because of cost.
I like my job, and I feel like I have a lot of options when it comes to what I do for employment.
I feel like I have a good deal of power in my life choices, which is its own kind of freedom. I can basically live where I want, work where I want, etc.

Cons:
I have limited vacation (about 6 weeks per year). (Con #1 with a bullet)
I do often wish I had more time to just be a kid when I was younger.
I feel like I started all my hobbies much later in life than other people because I was too busy working to put myself through school, then just working to establish myself as a professional.

If I had to do it again, I would do it the same. I really enjoy the life I have now.

I took your question seriously. I hope this is helpful.

Alicia Sokolowski wrote:I am an engineer that is also a lawyer, so, I guess you should take that into account, whatever it's supposed to mean (apparently only bad things). I found climbing really late in life, so there was never really the option to dirtbag and get really good. I do really like the idea of it. It seems like a free and exciting existence. I came from an extremely modest background and used education to get out of the situation I was in. I am thankful for my dumb luck in picking fields that are quite employable, but I often feel like I missed my chance to have a carefree youth. Kids are another factor. I knew I wanted them, and I didn't want them growing up as financially insecure as I did. It basically locked me into the reality of being an earner. So, those were my choices, here are what I consider to be the pros and cons: Pros: I can travel and climb anywhere in the world with the vacation I do have. I have a family that makes me happy, and we are financially secure. I never even question things like new equipment, gym memberships, weekend climbing getaways, etc. because of cost. I like my job, and I feel like I have a lot of options when it comes to what I do for employment. I feel like I have a good deal of power in my life choices, which is its own kind of freedom. I can basically live where I want, work where I want, etc. Cons: I have limited vacation (about 6 weeks per year). (Con #1 with a bullet) I do often wish I had more time to just be a kid when I was younger. I feel like I started all my hobbies much later in life than other people because I was too busy working to put myself through school, then just working to establish myself as a professional. If I had to do it again, I would do it the same. I really enjoy the life I have now. I took your question seriously. I hope this is helpful.

That was a very nice, thoughtful post.

I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I'll tell you my story.

I fell in love with climbing at age 14, and have done it actively since then, which so far is 58 years.

I went to college. In my family and surroundings, that was a given. I always loved mathematics, so I majored in it. Spent many weekends and most of the summer climbing (with other math and physics types). Straight out of college, I got a job as a high-school math teacher. I was reasonably good at it, enjoyed it, and I had three months to climb every summer, plus many weekends during the year, plus a mid-winter and spring vacation week or two. The net result is that I had about sixteen summers during which I traveled and climbed for three months. So, a dirtbag life during the summer, but also an adequate salary that enabled me to buy gear and cars and live in NYC, which everyone knows is not cheap.

One of the things this part of my life taught me is that I could never be just a climber. By the end of three months of climbing, I would be starting to burn out, feeling tired, unmotivated, looking for excuses to do something else, and actively looking forward to heading back East and starting another school year.

One day I woke up paralyzed from the waist down. Doctors said I had a non-specific viral inflammation of the spinal cord---something analogous to meningitis. I was in a wheel chair on the neurology ward, where everyone else was much worse off than me. My prognosis was uncertain; some recovery was expected but how complete could not be predicted. I realized my climbing days were probably over, and my walking days might be as well.

I still had a functional brain, unlike many on the neurology ward, and I still loved mathematics, so I decided to do more of that, since climbing might well be out of the question. I went to grad school, got a PhD in math (I was by then older with a family, and it took me a while) and went on to a modest career as a college professor. As it turned out, I was also very lucky and, over the course of about a year, had a full physical recovery.

With a family and the more extensive responsibilities and interests that come with being an academic, it was never again possible to climb for three months in the summer. I carried on with a very occasional one-month trip, and some much shorter ones, and regular single days during the week or weekend. There were many climbs I had hoped to do that I never got around to doing. My time was filled with things equally or considerably more important to me than climbing, but climbing has remained, to this day, a defining passion.

Still, as you get into your seventies, you have to recognize that you are near the end of the line in more than one way. The body starts to wear out, strength ebbs, recovery periods lengthen, and other health issues can intervene at any moment. You can be fine one day and not at all fine the next. Life might well go on, but climbing might not---the great majority of people I climbed with have either lost interest or physically can't do it any more, and many of them have been out of the game for the past twenty years or more. That's a lot of non-climbing time, and what you can or cannot do with that time depends to a great extent on what you were doing up until your departure from climbing. I've given money in the past to great climbers who dirtbagged through life and ended up falling on hard times, and will probably feel the need to do so again.

So are there any lessons to take away from one man's journey? One is that you don't know how long climbing will be a part of your life, so think carefully about putting all your eggs in a single basket. A second is that you can have a totally fulfilling, if not as accomplished, climbing career while still being gainfully employed at something you like doing. And a third is that there are professions (for example teaching and nursing) that can allow you to combine dirtbagging with gainful employment. But please start putting something away for retirement now, so that you don't end up begging for money from those of us who made other choices and other sacrifices.

Best of luck (because luck matters too) in your life choices.

Greg Petliski wrote: This could be viewed as a con just as easily. No matter how frugal a person is, if they have the funds to do it, they're going to be buying more stuff than people that don't have the funds. You're more likely to toss something that still has plenty of life, because you don't even stop to think about the cost (you being anyone in a similar position, not you specifically).

You are absolutely correct that I probably get rid of things well before they are done-for. I generally do so by giving them to my pals that have budgets on the leaner side. Usually, if people climb with me, they see how I treat my stuff, and can decide if they'd like to take the equipment a season or two longer than I am willing to. I can't agree that it's a con, but it is true that I don't skirt the limits of safety by stretching my gear to the lifespan limit.

I am a creature of habit, plus I like the idea of financial security, so gleam from that what you want. I'm a public school high school teacher of 13 years, and found climbing when I was 18 years old, so at this point in my life, it's been with me longer than it hasn't. I suppose that stands as testament to how much the climbing lifestyle has infiltrated my life; however, I never felt a desire to let it take over my life. I suppose contributing to the greater good of humankind makes me happy, plus it adds balance within my life; for some, however, the "climbers' life" (whatever that is these days) is the end-all, be-all.

I have two children, a wife who works as an ICU nurse (she climbs, as well), a mortgage...all the entrapments of a traditional nuclear family, yet we still make time for regular sojourns into the vertical world and have the money to buy the gear we need to stay safe. Sure, I don't climb nearly as much during the school year (thanks for being so close, Philly Rock Gyms!), but I have a great vacation schedule and my summers off. Because of this schedule, my climbing psych is renewed annually knowing I am approaching that time of year where I can forget about work for 2+ months and focus on climbing, my family, and sleep. I have found, however, that climbing has served multiple purposes as the years progressed--to get me outside; to keep me physically/mentally fit; to keep my nerves (I have children!!) at bay and in check; to give me confidence; and to give me a purpose to travel.

I tried the climber life once when I decided to take a sabbatical from work and join my wife while she was a travel nurse. Needless-to-say, it didn't work out in the end. I became very antsy, was losing the desire to just go out and climb/run/recreate each day, and so I wrote an article that decidedly excised the demons of idle time, sold it to Rock and Ice, and returned home to my job.

rgold wrote:I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I'll tell you my story. I fell in love with climbing at age 14, and have done it actively since then, which so far is 58 years. I went to college. In my family and surroundings, that was a given. I always loved mathematics, so I majored in it. Spent many weekends and most of the summer climbing (with other math and physics types). Straight out of college, I got a job as a high-school math teacher. I was reasonably good at it, enjoyed it, and I had three months to climb every summer, plus many weekends during the year, plus a mid-winter and spring vacation week or two. The net result is that I had about sixteen summers during which I traveled and climbed for three months. So, a dirtbag life during the summer, but also an adequate salary that enabled me to buy gear and cars and live in NYC, which everyone knows is not cheap. One of the things this part of my life taught me is that I could never be just a climber. By the end of three months of climbing, I would be starting to burn out, feeling tired, unmotivated, looking for excuses to do something else, and actively looking forward to heading back East and starting another school year. One day I woke up paralyzed from the waist down. Doctors said I had a non-specific viral inflammation of the spinal cord---something analogous to meningitis. I was in a wheel chair on the neurology ward, where everyone else was much worse off than me. My prognosis was uncertain; some recovery was expected but how complete could not be predicted. I realized my climbing days were probably over, and my walking days might be as well. I still had a functional brain, unlike many on the neurology ward, and I still loved mathematics, so I decided to do more of that, since climbing might well be out of the question. I went to grad school, got a PhD in math (I was by then older with a family, and it took me a while) and went on to a modest career as a college professor. As it turned out, I was also very lucky and, over the course of about a year, had a full physical recovery. With a family and the more extensive responsibilities and interests that come with being an academic, it was never again possible to climb for three months in the summer. I carried on with a very occasional one-month trip, and some much shorter ones, and regular single days during the week or weekend. There were many climbs I had hoped to do that I never got around to doing. My time was filled with things equally or considerably more important to me than climbing, but climbing has remained, to this day, a defining passion. Still, as you get into your seventies, you have to recognize that you are near the end of the line in more than one way. The body starts to wear out, strength ebbs, recovery periods lengthen, and other health issues can intervene at any moment. You can be fine one day and not at all fine the next. Life might well go on, but climbing might not---the great majority of people I climbed with have either lost interest or physically can't do it any more, and many of them have been out of the game for the past twenty years or more. That's a lot of non-climbing time, and what you can or cannot do with that time depends to a great extent on what you were doing up until your departure from climbing. I've given money in the past to great climbers who dirtbagged through life and ended up falling on hard times, and will probably feel the need to do so again. So are there any lessons to take away from one man's journey? One is that you don't know how long climbing will be a part of your life, so think carefully about putting all your eggs in a single basket. A second is that you can have a totally fulfilling, if not as accomplished, climbing career while still being gainfully employed at something you like doing. And a third is that there are professions (for example teaching and nursing) that can allow you to combine dirtbagging with gainful employment. But please start putting something away for retirement now, so that you don't end up begging for money from those of us who made other choices and other sacrifices. Best of luck (because luck matters too) in your life choices.

Thanks for the wisdom, Rgold. I'm feeling lucky just being a Westerner with hi speed internet today...

There are plenty of great engineers.

There are also plenty of engineers that go into the field and try to tell people how to do jobs they do not understand.

I do alot of inspection (NDT, Bridges, etc.) and alot of guys really know their stuff.

But then I have been told by other engineers how I am doing stuff wrong and they argue and then put verify in field on plans.....

Moral of the story is that education does not make you smart and it doesn't mean you will be successful. That is hardwork and luck.

Hey Luc,
Go for the dirt bag climbing now!! Don't worry about grammar, just worry about your next climb. You never know, you may find a woman 20 years your senior (maybe your best friend's mother) with a pile of cash that likes to hear climbing stories in bed. Besides breeding more consuming citizens is not what the Earth needs right now. So take a break and go climbing for a life time.

So I am going to open myself up here and tell a different story to the OP...

I have four degrees that say engineering on them...two of them are from a fancy top three school (USN&WR) that everyone has heard of. I have been very lucky to find employment in Boulder, with all there is associated with that. However, in order to stay employed in my field in Boulder, I have to work 50-60 hrs a week, make below 6 figures in a town with a relatively high cost of living, only get two weeks of vacation a year that I rarely have the opportunity to take full advantage of, consistently work weekends, have low job security, travel for work frequently and do relatively high stress work. Basically first world problems, but something for the OP to consider. On the upside, it is certainly cutting edge and can be rewarding.

The point is the following: an engineering degree is nice but does not guarantee employment in your field in a place of your choosing. If you do find employment in your field, you might have to trade off the terms of that employment with the lifestyle you wanted in the long run. The popular misconception that an engineering degree is a guaranteed path to employment and financial success, as suggested by the OP, is perpetuated by the "The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage ". The unfortunate truth is that the job market is still highly competitive in many engineering disciplines.

There are plenty of paths that may be better if you are simply looking for consistent employment. There are also paths that might be more conducive to a satisfying climbing life. Choose the path that best suits you.

Alicia Sokolowski wrote:I am an engineer that is also a lawyer, so, I guess you should take that into account, whatever it's supposed to mean (apparently only bad things). I found climbing really late in life, so there was never really the option to dirtbag and get really good. I do really like the idea of it. It seems like a free and exciting existence. I came from an extremely modest background and used education to get out of the situation I was in. I am thankful for my dumb luck in picking fields that are quite employable, but I often feel like I missed my chance to have a carefree youth. Kids are another factor. I knew I wanted them, and I didn't want them growing up as financially insecure as I did. It basically locked me into the reality of being an earner. So, those were my choices, here are what I consider to be the pros and cons: Pros: I can travel and climb anywhere in the world with the vacation I do have. I have a family that makes me happy, and we are financially secure. I never even question things like new equipment, gym memberships, weekend climbing getaways, etc. because of cost. I like my job, and I feel like I have a lot of options when it comes to what I do for employment. I feel like I have a good deal of power in my life choices, which is its own kind of freedom. I can basically live where I want, work where I want, etc. Cons: I have limited vacation (about 6 weeks per year). (Con #1 with a bullet) I do often wish I had more time to just be a kid when I was younger. I feel like I started all my hobbies much later in life than other people because I was too busy working to put myself through school, then just working to establish myself as a professional. If I had to do it again, I would do it the same. I really enjoy the life I have now. I took your question seriously. I hope this is helpful.

Juh-heezsas - 6 weeks paid vacation is limited?! I must be doing something wrong. Edit: I see how specialized your work is. Looks like a good gig - well done!

I feel there a space here to provide the OP advice from an "engineer". I went to CalTech and majored in aerospace and received my PhD in electrical engineering from MIT. I've been published in all the major journals and have made very sound financial decisions that has contributed to my ability to retire before 40. Now I get to spend all of my time climbing anything, anywhere and anytime. I hire guides in Nepal and sneak over borders into secret climbing areas with locals who sell me sweaters they knitted from their kids hair. Then I sit back, rub my nuts and sing, "Hallelujah!"

Oh and all of that is a lie, except for the first sentence.. and the part about being 40..

Ray

Will S wrote:^^^^ Didn't say "no car", said "never owned a NEW car". CU is not really a "good" engineering school. Fair to middling maybe, but certainly not anything that will impress anyone in the engineering field. I went to a top 5 school, and that actually opens doors when you are early in your career. CU is somewhere around 40th or 50th in most rankings, which is not what I'd consider "good" by any stretch....

As a young mechanical engineer who graduated from a university ranked probably much lower than CU, I'd really like to emphasize that the ranking of whichever school granted you a diploma, which "proves" somehow that you're somewhat competent, is nowhere near as important as actually proving to a potential employer (with skills and experience and interest and ambition) that you're not full of shit and actually have an interest in what your degree says you "know". Gain experience, learn skills, quit and dirtbag, easily get another job later because you have the credentials to justify it, repeat...But I'd not go the dirtbag route before you can afford living whatever lifestyle you choose for a year without additional income, just saying.

I love myself more for thrusting myself into demanding situations in raw nature with nothing but what's in my pack, and making it back home alive and broken down from being clueless, nervous, and FREE! I'm so much more confident that I could roll with the dirtbag lifestyle in confidence and happiness. Fuck what others say, they haven't been there, and they're spoiled rotten by the comforts and luxuries in civilization. Go sweat, bleed, survive, and be happy about it! You may be able to inspire the people that have nothing to talk about, but playing the latest video game in their A/C, watching the game, and how many alcoholic beverages they worked to pay for and vomit right back up.

Luc Ried wrote:I'm sorry if my lack of commas, run on sentence, and lack of punctuation bothered you. I know how much grammar matters in my pursuit of a prospective education in the field of engineering.

mugdown.com/2015/04/14/why-…

Get an engineering degree from a public college near great climbing that offers you lots of scholarships. Get a job near great climbing and buy a van. Live like a dirtbag while making 75k+ a year. Save 25k+ a year. Pay off your student and car loans. Leave your job and climb climb climb!

Best of both worlds.

Bonus if you can work remotely and can work on your rest days. Income + living on the road!

Can I just honestly say that I'd be incredibly interested in meeting a "real" engineer-dirtbag. Like someone who wouldn't have trouble getting a job at a major corporation as a senior engineer (or at least mid-pay-grade) if they so chose to, but who has decided to live as a legitimate dirtbag for at least some number of months. That is a person I'd really like to drink some beers and have some conversation with...

Paul Hutton wrote:I love myself more for thrusting myself into demanding situations in raw nature with nothing but what's in my pack, and making it back home alive and broken down from being clueless, nervous, and FREE! I'm so much more confident that I could roll with the dirtbag lifestyle in confidence and happiness. Fuck what others say, they haven't been there, and they're spoiled rotten by the comforts and luxuries in civilization. Go sweat, bleed, survive, and be happy about it! You may be able to inspire the people that have nothing to talk about, but playing the latest video game in their A/C, watching the game, and how many alcoholic beverages they worked to pay for and vomit right back up.

Paul, I absolutely respect your opinion here, and in many ways agree, but I can't help but comment on a few aspects from the point of view of a stereotypical (based on me and several friends) engineer.

We take our precious vacation week(s) to go to locations where we also thrust ourselves into situations in raw nature with nothing but what's in our pack, but we tend to spend a somewhat unreasonable amount of time deciding what belongs and what can be left behind before doing so. As a result, we have regrets about not bringing those big cams or tricams on this trip, they would have been perfect. Returning alive and broken down but "successful" follows similarly to anyone else, feels better than most things I can think of. BTW, we're equally nervous and sometimes just as clueless.

I honestly don't think I could roll with the dirtbag lifestyle for more than two months. I like showers and flush toilets and being able to wash my hands too much. Strike one, comforts and luxuries of civilization win out here.

Sweating, bleeding, and surviving make us just as satisfied as any other person I've ever met, I expect that's a human trait for which we should all be very pleased.

I don't know anything about air conditioning, video games, or the big game, but my friends/colleagues tend to have varied and interesting hobbies which we're all happy to let each other talk about and listen to, somewhat-interested.

Lastly, and perhaps most-importantly...none of us vomit up any alcoholic beverage we've worked "hard enough" to afford, no matter how fancy or pedestrian it may be.

Cynical, but honest. Complain if you must, but engineers love spending time with non-engineers who have different opinions. Without that, there's pretty much no fun anywhere.

You could always get a computer science degree, get a job in san fran with a starting salary if you are good at 100k+ and a signing bonus at alot of companies. Find 2-3 other people and share a tiny apartment. Save for a few years. Than ditch and take 5-10 off.

It is all about trying to find a 2k a month place (can find cheaper places but can be run down) that only has like 2 beds but make sure 2 of the 4 people sharing it work at night so they are sleeping at different times etc.

Some companies I have worked with out there offer free lunch, and even free dinner if you are working late. You don't really need a car. If you can deal with dirt bagging with a few others to make the rent cheap. And get paid really well for working there, you could save a ton of money really fast.

I personally like these things called trees, grass, dirt, etc so I couldn't deal with living in a big city.

You could always get a computer science degree, get a job in san fran with a starting salary if you are good at 100k+ and a signing bonus at alot of companies. /quote>

I dont know about San Fran, but in general getting $100k straight out of college working in IT is not easy. Most starting positions in IT completely suck--like $10 an hour. Think helpdesk. That's what most people do right out of college until they specialize. Then once you specialize you can make a lot. I know guys who write drivers for Windows who make some $200k a year. I also know CCIE guys working in the defense sector who make $150k and they dont seem to do anything at work except surf Facebook.

However, in both of those cases it took years for those guys to rise to those positions. I am not saying it's not possible, only that it's worth noting that most entry level IT jobs, which are typically helpdesk positions, actually pay quite poorly.

20 kN wrote:You could always get a computer science degree, get a job in san fran with a starting salary if you are good at 100k+ and a signing bonus at alot of companies. /quote> I dont know about San Fran, but in general getting $100k straight out of college working in IT is not easy. Most starting positions in IT completely suck--like $10 an hour. Think helpdesk. That's what most people do right out of college until they specialize. Then once you specialize you can make a lot. I know guys who write drivers for Windows who make some $200k a year. I also know CCIE guys working in the defense sector who make $150k and they dont seem to do anything at work except surf Facebook. However, in both of those cases it took years for those guys to rise to those positions. I am not saying it's not possible, only that it's worth noting that most entry level IT jobs, which are typically helpdesk positions, actually pay quite poorly.

IT probably yes but not software dev if you are good, you can make really good money there (but you do have to deal with high cost of living aka dirt bagging with friends)

IT & Dev are 2 different things.

Given I am no longer right out of college but one of our clients I flew out and spent some time working with offered me 50% higher salary than what I make on east coast. I just don't like cities. At the same time they had a big college prospect group there and that was what they were offering them like 20-30k sign on bonus, stock in the company, and at a very min of 80k salary.

Got to remember making 80k in san fran is probably like making 50k in raleigh the biggest dev area on the east coast. So it really isn't that much money if you aren't dirt bagging with friends to split housing cost.