Ethics : lowering vs rapping

There's another issue and that is traffic. Rumney is an example where lowering is encouraged. In part because of reasons listed by others above, but I believe the ethic to lower also developed there to keep people moving. You just go into the quick clips and lower off of Underdog so the next group of 7 doesn't have to wait for you to thread and set a rappel.

Well I'm not advocating simply telling all my partners to assume I always rap, I think it's much better to assume nothing and always have a conversation about it. Just playing devil's advocate because I don't think "always lower" is a ticket to safety.

What? Are you not weighting the rope with your belayer holding you before unclipping from the direct?

Em Cos wrote:I think it's much better to assume nothing and always have a conversation about it.

That sounds great in theory, but I'm kind of forgetful & can't always remember/not get confused with what my partner intend to do after a long dog sesh (or even a quick send). But I can follow a habit I've formed over time w/o too much thinking.

Eric LaRoche wrote:What? Are you not weighting the rope with your belayer holding you before unclipping from the direct?

In theory this is great, and everyone really should always be doing it, but there are routes where the friction below you may make it feel like the rope is taking your weight until you lean back to be lowered. Not real common, but it's a possibility.

Em Cos wrote: I'm confused about your last sentence - are you suggesting that lowering through one rap ring or chain link puts less wear on the rope or gear than rapping off two? I'm not sure that's true - and regardless, removing redundancy in an anchor system when you are rapping or lowering and completely dependent on that anchor seems like a significant reduction in safety and a terrible idea. There is a reason bolted anchors have two points.

I don't have data, but it makes intuitive sense that pulling a rap rope through one ring causes less wear than pulling it through two rings. In which case those who want me to decrease my margin of safety in the interest of preserving anchors should be willing to do the same with their own. After all, anchor bolts almost never fail.

I'm sure you understand this suggestion is in the spirit of Swift's Modest Proposal. But I think it deserves a moments reflection amidst the safety/wear debate.

There's no friction on the anchor if you're rapping so use both points. You put the same wear on the rope since both sides of the rope are going through your device.

I'm guessing he's saying lower through one anchor. Obviously don't do that, saving a 10 dollar piece of metal isn't worth dying over should the one anchor blow.

Eric LaRoche wrote:There's no friction on the anchor if you're rapping so use both points.

But you still need to pull the rope, so theoretically you'll induce less wear to the anchor if you are only pulling thru one anchor point. Like Mark alluded to, as w/ the satire Modest Proposal, he's not suggesting people to actually do that.

Didn't realize he was joking.

Mark E Dixon wrote: I don't have data, but it makes intuitive sense that pulling a rap rope through one ring causes less wear than pulling it through two rings. In which case those who want me to decrease my margin of safety in the interest of preserving anchors should be willing to do the same with their own. After all, anchor bolts almost never fail. I'm sure you understand this suggestion is in the spirit of Swift's Modest Proposal. But I think it deserves a moments reflection amidst the safety/wear debate.

It just confuses people who are easily confused. Throwing a sarcastic recommendation that apparently is too subtle only adds confusion to a safety discussion. Can we kill the idea now? I think we need a lower or rap article for the School of Rock section.

The basics:
1. Never take the climber off belay unless they give a clear and specific request to do so. Confirm that.

2. In a sport situation with beefy replaceable wear point anchors, generally always lower, the exception primarily being if your rope is going to be running over sharp or rough rock or the anchors are the old school Metolius Rap Hangers or something similar that trashes your rope.

3. In a traditional setting you are more likely to run into sub par anchor set-ups like slings with aluminum rap rings etc. that require rapping rather than lowering. You should absolutely never lower off aluminum rap rings (they wear like butter and are weak) or directly through slings or bare hangers. If you don't absolutely trust what you are rapping off, back it up, even if it means leaving gear.

4. Most up to date sport areas now use beefy anchors with easily replaceable wear points. Still always TR off your own gear, but the wear of the last person lowering is expected and that use encouraged. Contribute to anchor upkeep.

Micah Klesick wrote: This.

I second this also,RRG locals know to lower on overhanging stuff just don't steal our "cleaner" biners.But you can earn street credit for replacing quicklinks on the chains

reboot wrote: That sounds great in theory, but I'm kind of forgetful & can't always remember/not get confused with what my partner intend to do after a long dog sesh (or even a quick send). But I can follow a habit I've formed over time w/o too much thinking.

This is sarcasm right...? Please say yes.

Five15Factor2 wrote: This is sarcasm right...? Please say yes.

This is insight, self awareness and wisdom.

Mark E Dixon wrote: This is insight, self awareness and wisdom.

Yeah... I hate thinking and remembering stuff too.

Five15Factor2 wrote: Yeah... I hate thinking and remembering stuff too.

Maybe your attention is impeccable, your memory infallible and your intellect invincible, but mine sure isn't!
If I can develop a habit that protects me from the dire consequences of my human frailties, it'd be foolish for me not to do so.

What's wrong with developing the habit of always having a conversation with your partner about how you will descend?

Em Cos wrote:What's wrong with developing the habit of always having a conversation with your partner about how you will descend?

Climbing friend,

People change their minds and say brah, lower me brah, off belay, on belay, wait, I'm going to rappel. Off belay. Ok just lower me brah.

Aleks Zebastian wrote: Climbing friend, People change their minds and say brah, lower me brah, off belay, on belay, wait, I'm going to rappel. Off belay. Ok just lower me brah.

Aleks,

From the looks of you, couldn't they just jump into your outstretched, beefy arms? No need for this rappelling or lowering stuff. I think the correct command is "Jumping."

FrankPS wrote: Aleks, From the looks of you, couldn't they just jump into your outstretched, beefy arms? No need for this rappelling or lowering stuff. I think the correct command is "Jumping."

No you say falling than just jump, jumping isn't a proper climbing command.

ViperScale wrote: No you say falling than just jump, jumping isn't a proper climbing command.

Wouldn't you just say, "Rock"? I think that may be technically more correct than "falling."