cochise development

Guy Keesee wrote:cuffs.... wow you sure have it backwards.... what exactly is the harm in placing a clean piece of pro on a sport climb???? Nothing gets changed. On the other hand, if you place a bolt where their wasn't one, the whole deal is changed. I find your logic flawed.

Where is the harm and skipping the bolt bro, does it make your eyes burn? I think you're confused. When you demand I do it your way it's somehow tradition but I'm not gonna demand you do it my way because I'm not a selfish asshole.

Another S.AZ / Stronghold thread....Oy Vey! Just when I getting really bored at work....booyah! I'm putting the over/under for posts at 300. Who's taking? I suspect SureChuff is taking the back-door action.

For those of you looking to put up new routes out there, for fame and glory(why else?)....walk further and find clean lines. Hopefully employ good style.

If you find a route with one bolt it's prolly been done. Climb it or keep walking. Keep your drill in yur under-roos. There are prolly gear placements or easy runouts you can't see whilst sitting on the ground being a little bitch.

So much talk about DDC routes. I bet he'd laugh his ass off if he read this. I've belayed Dave on a 1/2 dozen 1st ascents out there BITD. I always thought the crux was the approach LoL. If you aren't bleeding from the schwetty bush-whack approach then it's prolly not a DDC route ;-).

There is a lifetime of well protected climbing out there. Leave the scarefest's alone unless you are up for that game. Honestly, those routes are few and far between. If you've climbed at the Needles, Yose, Josh, etc...those routes are not unreasonable. They require skill and a cool head. It has nothing to do with being badass. It's about digging deep within and seeing what you are made of. They will bring you great joy.

Where is the thread to retro-bolt EBGB's???

Are some of the peeps posting on this thread for real? Bitching about runouts on Endgame. This new 'entitlement' generation are a real bunch of soft serve wankers I tell ya. Back to the gym... ya little prick's ya ;-)

Healyje wrote: Now to say Ken has communication issues would be a grand understatement. That said, he's never been into "improving things", only preserving them.

You mean improving things like cutting down trees to make top roping easier or chopping his own bolts after leading the route and leaving them to bleed rust down the cliff for years to come?

Does S Az win the award for most pathetic bolt war thread, or is there some other contender? Post links please.

Anyone want to climb in Cochise on Monday & Tuesday? We can see for ourselves. PM me.

Sir chuffs alot wrote: See I thought that when you have climbed as long as you have and still climb climb 510 it was a clear indication of how rottin your vaginitis is. I mean, you have never physically pushed yourself in climbing, so that too is a type of pussy. if you honestly believe that you have pushed yourself, and you still climb 5.10, then you are more than just a pussy you're a terrible climber and you probably shouldn't contribute to the conversation. My favorite argument is when you whiny little bitches insist that no one should be able to climb you're routes in any style but the way you demand, like crybabies who take their ball home when they lose the game. When it comes to sport climbs you don't see climbers being assholes like that. If you want to use cams on a sport climb, no one is going to blow a gasket because, believe it or not sport climbers are actually much better at sharing than asshole troglodytes who claim tradition as an excuse as to why they should always get their way. Kinda like religion huh? I can see why you are so attracted to their ideology, Silly arguments like that are the only way you're going to get the masses to do what you demand! Otherwise, we might make choices for ourselves, and you would not be so cool with that.

Since 5.10 is apparently such a trivial grade for you I've got $100 that says I can point you at 10 consecutive 5.10'sthat you will back off of. Only constraint is that we'll use the accepted grades of 40 years ago. Yup these routes will all be 40 years old or more. Should be easy $$ for such a hard man.

Eric Engberg wrote: Since 5.10 is apparently such a trivial grade for you I've got $100 that says I can point you at 10 consecutive 5.10'sthat you will back off of. Only constraint is that we'll use the accepted grades of 40 years ago. Yup these routes will all be 40 years old or more. Should be easy $$ for such a hard man.

you mean to say there are 10 routes left that havent been made safe yet by some wuss who likes to creep around in malls???

Miike wrote: You mean improving things like cutting down trees to make top roping easier or chopping his own bolts after leading the route and leaving them to bleed rust down the cliff for years to come?

Again, Ken wasn't trying to "improve" anything, just the opposite. I've climbed with Ken, I made off to Oregon with his protege and am well familiar with the man's failings and shortcomings. Also, he wasn't "chopping his own bolts after leading a route", rather went into a rage over people coming in and bolting and so pulled all the fixed pro. Had he and a few other's placed some bolts? Sure, but nothing like the flood he was trying to stem which still looms over the place like a wave if Fire is any indication. And, character flaws aside, he's a better climber then any of the lot of you will ever be.

Sir chuffs alot wrote:See I thought that when you have climbed as long as you have and still climb climb 510 it was a clear indication of how rottin your vaginitis is. I mean, you have never physically pushed yourself in climbing, so that too is a type of pussy. if you honestly believe that you have pushed yourself, and you still climb 5.10, then you are more than just a pussy you're a terrible climber and you probably shouldn't contribute to the conversation.

Well, you got the 'Chuff' part right. What a poser. Dude, when our crew was climbing in college things topped out at .10 and .11 when we all left. Some of those climbs were uprated to .11's and .12s with one we put up in '76 to either a .12 or 13 depending on who you talk to. And that was forty one years ago, but I'm still leading and putting up .10-.11R/X trad lines. My latest project is a six-pitch line with seven roofs on it. I and my young (.13 sport) partner are both stuck at the same spot turning the lip of the third and largest roof where I've been taking fifty footers. It's .12R down from .12X only because I've led out to the lip five times and have sorted out better pro. Come on out and give it a whirl - you're clearly just the right chuff to get the job done for us pussies. Oh, and it's already got a name: 'Menopause'. So right up your alley.

And "just don't clip them"? That [ancient - like so '82] line always says it all every time - no stones whatsoever - all vag, all the time. Again, total clip-joint poser.

Tim Lutz wrote:Putting Nichols on a pedestal. Interesting tactic.

No need to "glorify" or put Ken on a "pedestal". I know the reality, not the myth. He can be a raging asshole and his communication skills can range out to the sociopathic. That said, he was and is flat out a better climber than 98% of you could ever aspire to. And, however, demented the approach, his sole abiding purpose in his misguided jihads has been to keep CT from being paved over to just another grid-bolted clip joint.

Tim Lutz wrote:It is about usage of a resource by a group with differing views on how it should be used. And the numbers of climbers is growing quickly enough that discussions on how this resource should be used by a given community is becoming more pertinent that relying on 30 year old FA laws.

What you really mean is that, over thirty-five years, gyms have become the engine driving the commercialization of a dumbed down version of the sport spiking the demographic to all time highs while at the same time driving the skill, grade, and risk-assumption level of the average demographic into the dirt. You can bet your ass that less than five percent of the total demographic who will don a harness this year can competently place pro. There is now even a percentage of the demographic who have climbed for years and either never climbed outside or did once and beat a hasty retreat to the 'safe' confines of the gym. That leaves an overwhelming percentage of the total demographic (like probably 85%) who can't climb outside unless someone goes out and bolts rocks for them.

So yeah, you can call that "a community" and [conveniently] reduce the rock to mere "a resource" for your riskless 'clip-dog-clip-dog-send-next!' exploits - but don't try to pass that off as 'climbing' to someone who knows better. We'll be gone soon enough and you'll have your way. But don't be surprised if your children or grandchildren wake up one day bored out of their fucking minds and start ripping them all out to restore something beyond mere entertainment to the sport.

Healyje wrote: Again, Ken wasn't trying to "improve" anything, just the opposite. I've climbed with Ken, I made off to Oregon with his protege and am well familiar with the man's failings and shortcomings. Also, he wasn't "chopping his own bolts after leading a route", rather went into a rage over people coming in and bolting and so pulled all the fixed pro. Had he and a few other's placed some bolts? Sure, but nothing like the flood he was trying to stem which still looms over the place like a wave if Fire is any indication. And, character flaws aside, he's a better climber then any of the lot of you will ever be.

I didnt know, are you and his protege married yet or was it a short lived romance?

And yeah, I hear Kenny has a certain 5.11 dialed, at least after 11,000 times I sure hope he has it dialed. The chalk on that route can be seen from outer space.

Off to the gym now to work on my 5.9- proj for me, then to the mall to pick up some more video games.

Healyje wrote: Well, you got the 'Chuff' part right. What a poser. Dude, when our crew was climbing in college things topped out at .10 and .11 when we all left. Some of those climbs were uprated to .11's and .12s with one we put up in '76 to either a .12 or 13 depending on who you talk to. And that was forty one years ago, but I'm still leading and putting up .10-.11R/X trad lines. My latest project is a six-pitch line with seven roofs on it. I and my young (.13 sport) partner are both stuck at the same spot turning the lip of the third and largest roof where I've been taking fifty footers. It's .12R down from .12X only because I've led out to the lip five times and have sorted out better pro. Come on out and give it a whirl - you're clearly just the right chuff to get the job done for us pussies. Oh, and it's already got a name: 'Menopause'. So right up your alley. And "just don't clip them"? That [ancient - like so '82] line always says it all every time - no stones whatsoever - all vag, all the time. Again, total clip-joint poser.

Nice Spray bra,

So, according to your answer, if you skip a bolt, first you lose your stones and then you grow a vag. Ultimately you start smoking joints on a clip and lose all your money? Holy shit man, what happens when you see chalk or a pin scar? A more well reasoned response has yet to be offered.

J Q wrote: Nice Spray bra, So, according to your answer, if you skip a bolt, first you lose your stones and then you grow a vag. Ultimately you start smoking joints on a clip and lose all your money? Holy shit man, what happens when you see chalk or a pin scar? A more well reasoned response has yet to be offered.

If the bolt is there no commitment is required. Simple as that. but I guess with your vision of "climbing" (safe gymnastics) you will never get that.

I've climbed with Ken too. Brilliant climber, horrible human being - it is what it is. If he had let his climbing do the talking instead of his over the top chopping - maybe he would have the respect he might deserve - not from you gym rat weenies but from actual climbers. But he blew it and deserves no respect.

has anyone measured the circumference of their sack and length of their unit to share with everyone? Healy, you go first, maybe your stolen protege from CT can fill us in on choppy mcchoppers as well.

Would recommend climbing the multitude of great, safe routes there and learning some history/meeting the locals before firing too many new routes in. David Roberts book "Once they moved like the wind" would be a good place to start. Kind of niave to call these routes "half-assed"
AZ is full of staunch traditionilist, even the sport climbers have ethics! It will end badly for you
Headin there on Monday! Wooohoo

ps: I do wish someone would replace that pin on the 4th pitch of abra!

Tim Lutz wrote:Those where great routes put up by visionaries.

Putting up runout slab routes hardly qualifies one as a 'visionary'. They're just bold climbers. And enough of the ball cupping, they didn't go to the moon, they just climbed a fucking cliff.

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Tim Lutz wrote:wow. that tis some next level hate. sorry his presence and his rock violations has played such a big role in your life.

Next level internet hatejob

It's alive!

Goood