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Hilti Glue

Original Post
Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804

Anyone ever use Hilti HIT-HY 70 Injectable mortar for glue-ins?

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392

Again, why are you even considering it unless you're bolting something to a brick/block/hollow wall?

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

Probably quite good except for the usual problem of price and that crap Hilti cartridge system!
I quite like the hybrid systems which have given good long-term results but nowadays they are pretty thin on the ground.

The only Hilti resin for natural stone is the HFX.

Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
Jim Titt wrote:Probably quite good except for the usual problem of price and that crap Hilti cartridge system! I quite like the hybrid systems which have given good long-term results but nowadays they are pretty thin on the ground. The only Hilti resin for natural stone is the HFX.
Thanks.
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Brian wrote: There is no Hilti glue that specifically says for rock climbing anchors. Yet lots of people use Hilti glue. According to Hilti it is for use with hollow base, OR SOLID, and grouted concrete. Have you ever used glue-ins? What do you use?
I've placed 500 (more?) glue-ins and have used a variety of glues over 15 years.

If you're gonna go Hilti, a good decision, I recommend the RE-500. It has a solid track record as a rock bolt glue in Europe, Thailand, Cayman Brac, Brazil, etc.

Some people think it's hard to work with because it sticks to everything (a good characteristic if you ask me). You just need a few skills. Ask.

Some people don't like the color (hot pink) but I do. The color makes it easy to see what you're doing, spot voids, etc. What they don't tell you is that it fades to an inconspicuous dull rose color after a year.

I do NOT like fast-gelling glues. The RE-500 gels slowly enough that I can work (placements previously marked) from the bottom up, drilling/cleaning/bolting/jugging in one pass, without rushing. A LOT less time and effort. I've done it the other way too(two passes), so I know.

I say be wary of using HIT-HY 70 for the simple reason no one else has used it for rock anchors to my knowledge. Also, I'm guessing it's a "binding mortar", and having used several of these, I prefer the "epoxy" glues.

Maybe you are concerned with voids in limestone? My opinion is to move the bolt anyway since you can't determine how strong the rock is without X-ray vision.
snowdenroad · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2007 · Points: 50

John & Jim, I have heard of Simpson strong tie epoxy being used, though not sure what kind. The end result is shiny gray. Certain death or no worries? Thanks.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

If using Simpson, use the SET-XP or SET22 (Same stuff, just different size cartridge). It's no longer grey though, they changed the color to dark green. Simpson's EDOT might still be grey, and I suspect it would work fine. EDOT is more of a general purpose epoxy for gluing in rebar into concrete for freeway use, where SET22 is more specific to high strength applications. In any case, EDOT is still more than strong enough. Just make sure you're actually buying epoxy. I walked into Home Depot once and found an entire case of "SET 22"-labeled containers that were not epoxy but in fact silicone!! I called Simpson and they said they dont even make silicone and they launched an investigation. It seems someone bought a case of the real stuff, also bought a case of silicone, and then returned the silicone but with the SET22 stickers on the epoxy in order to defraud Home Depot.... Personally, I would never use any type of concrete to place glue-ins. Use a two-part pure epoxy or epoxyacrylate like the Redhead Epcon A7, Hilti 500, Hilti 150, Simpson SET22 or Powers Pure 110+.

cashmab · · Boston · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 1,923

I was talking to a local contractor (friend of a friend) who claims that HY-70 is superior for anchoring into rock. I plan to call Hilti and get the straight dope on HY-70 vs RE-500 for "our" purpose, insofar as strength, working time, and working conditions.

cashmab · · Boston · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 1,923

I called Hilti tech support and they actually recommend HY-70 over all their other mortars (even over RE-500 series) for installations in rock, and this was after I told them that the specific application was Titanium and stainless rock climbing anchors. The HY-70 is epoxy based and is specifically designed for rock. The main drawback is that cure time is extremely rapid in tropical climates (20 mins at 85 degrees F). This could be mitigated to some degree with an efficient work strategy, whereby all holes are predrilled and cleaned and then all bolts on a route are glued in one go from top to bottom. Other than working time I see no reason not to use it. The contractor I mentioned in previous post regularly has surplus from large projects that he is willing to unload for next to nothing.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
cashmab wrote:I called Hilti tech support and they actually recommend HY-70 over all their other mortars (even over RE-500 series) for installations in rock, and this was after I told them that the specific application was Titanium and stainless rock climbing anchors. The HY-70 is epoxy based and is specifically designed for rock. The main drawback is that cure time is extremely rapid in tropical climates (20 mins at 85 degrees F). This could be mitigated to some degree with an efficient work strategy, whereby all holes are predrilled and cleaned and then all bolts on a route are glued in one go from top to bottom. Other than working time I see no reason not to use it. The contractor I mentioned in previous post regularly has surplus from large projects that he is willing to unload for next to nothing.
Is the cure time 20 minutes or the gel time? If the cure time is 20 minutes, the gel time is probably half that. This means you have even less time, maybe 5 minutes, before the glue stiffens enough in the mixer that you'll have trouble pumping it out. Hopefully, he meant the gel time is 20 minutes...

Be aware of the other problem that happens when bolting quickly top-to-bottom. As I've mentioned before, if the route wanders any at all and the bolts are not all on one side of your working rope, then your weighted rope can bump the bolt(s) you just glued as you rap/swing to the next placement. Having to clip intermediates on steep routes exacerbates this issue (and slows you down too). Bumping a bolt with the rope before the glue is fully set causes the bolt to be off-plumb, and puts undesirable torque on it during a fall.

If you decide to use it, I'd be interested in your experiences using the HY-70.
cashmab · · Boston · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 1,923
John Byrnes wrote: Is the cure time 20 minutes or the gel time? If the cure time is 20 minutes, the gel time is probably half that. This means you have even less time, maybe 5 minutes, before the glue stiffens enough in the mixer that you'll have trouble pumping it out. Hopefully, he meant the gel time is 20 minutes... Be aware of the other problem that happens when bolting quickly top-to-bottom. As I've mentioned before, if the route wanders any at all and the bolts are not all on one side of your working rope, then your weighted rope can bump the bolt(s) you just glued as you rap/swing to the next placement. Having to clip intermediates on steep routes exacerbates this issue (and slows you down too). Bumping a bolt with the rope before the glue is fully set causes the bolt to be off-plumb, and puts undesirable torque on it during a fall. If you decide to use it, I'd be interested in your experiences using the HY-70.
That's a good question John, and in hindsight that distinction wasn't clear during my conversation with them.

Odd, I was just researching the description/specs of HY-70 on their website and some of the info seems to be inconsistent with what they told me over the phone. Makes me wonder if the rep I spoke with knew what they were talking about.

I agree with your comments regarding bolting top to bottom and risk of nudging bolts. In any case, my thought for HY-70 certainly isn't to use it on every route, but just as another tool in the bag for routes where it makes sense and is practicable to use a quick-gelling/curing mortar.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
John Byrnes wrote: Is the cure time 20 minutes or the gel time? If the cure time is 20 minutes, the gel time is probably half that. This means you have even less time, maybe 5 minutes, before the glue stiffens enough in the mixer that you'll have trouble pumping it out. Hopefully, he meant the gel time is 20 minutes... Be aware of the other problem that happens when bolting quickly top-to-bottom. As I've mentioned before, if the route wanders any at all and the bolts are not all on one side of your working rope, then your weighted rope can bump the bolt(s) you just glued as you rap/swing to the next placement. Having to clip intermediates on steep routes exacerbates this issue (and slows you down too). Bumping a bolt with the rope before the glue is fully set causes the bolt to be off-plumb, and puts undesirable torque on it during a fall. If you decide to use it, I'd be interested in your experiences using the HY-70.
Gel time at 30°C is 2 minutes, want to be quick! Store it in the fridge overnight and keep it in a cool bag until you´re ready to use it.
Use bolts which are an interference fit and designed specifically to obviate this problem.
HY70 is a urethane methacrylate hybrid resin, not sure it´s going to continue to be available as it is no longer listed on Hilti´s home website. Probably replaced by Hilti MM but they are always changing their product range so it´s hard to tell.
cashmab · · Boston · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 1,923

This post isn't going to be entirely on topic, but thought I would mention that I spoke to another rep at Hilti North America today who essentially recommended RE-500 V3 for our (rock climbing bolts and anchors) purpose. I also asked him to compare RE-100 with RE-500 V3, as RE-100 seems to be on the rise in popularity. He indicated that both are similar in that both are epoxy that have similar working and curing times, but that RE-500 has superior performance characteristics in terms of max tensile/pull-out strength. He also indicated that RE-500 has superior capillary travel through a porous/permeable medium compared to RE-100.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
cashmab wrote:Odd, I was just researching the description/specs of HY-70 on their website and some of the info seems to be inconsistent with what they told me over the phone.
And another rep recommends RE500 and Hilti themselves recommend HLX and used polyester for their mine anchors.
It would appear they know no more than anyone else:-)
cashmab · · Boston · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 1,923

Not to beat a dead horse, but thought I'd share that I spoke to another Hilti rep today (this time in person at the local hitli shop) and he recommended RE-500 V3 over everything for the same reason that I stated in my previous post -- that it has superior capillary absorption into the rock compared to quicker gelling/curing mortars. In short, faster gelling glues set too quickly in the formation before they have a chance to permeate interstices and void spaces in the formation. In short, his recommendations were consistent with those that the previous rep had provided. He also understands sport climbing and that our anchors are subjected to dynamic loads unlike many construction anchors, and thus indicated that RE-500 V3 is superior at performing under dynamic loads. Insofar as RE-100 vs RE-500 V3, he was only able to offer that RE-100 has much less empirical test data so it is somewhat more "unknown" with respect to enduring dynamic loads, particularly in a relatively non-homogeneous medium as natural rock (as compared to engineered concrete).

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392

Thanks Cashmab, good info. I think I'll just continue to use RE-500 V3 until there's a lot more data, especially in practical situations, about RE-100.

Nick Drake · · Kent, WA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 651

On the Hilti note, is something up with production of RE-500 v3? I don't see it listed on rapbolting site. ClimbTech is just selling HY200R. 

cashmab · · Boston · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 1,923
Nick Drake wrote:

On the Hilti note, is something up with production of RE-500 v3? I don't see it listed on rapbolting site. ClimbTech is just selling HY200R. 

Rapbolting seems to only sell RE-100, because it is nearly as good as RE-500 v3 but way cheaper. I've had a couple of back and forth emails with Martin about this, but I'd rather not quote or paraphrase his words from a private email. In the end, I've elected to continue to stick to RE-500 v3 due to its superior capillary permeation properties. Shouldn't be any problem finding it; I got some from Hilti just the other day.

Are you bolting with it out in Washington? Or somewhere else? 

Nick Drake · · Kent, WA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 651
cashmab wrote:

Rapbolting seems to only sell RE-100, because it is nearly as good as RE-500 v3 but way cheaper. I've had a couple of back and forth emails with Martin about this, but I'd rather not quote or paraphrase his words from a private email. In the end, I've elected to continue to stick to RE-500 v3 due to its superior capillary permeation properties. Shouldn't be any problem finding it; I got some from Hilti just the other day.

Are you bolting with it out in Washington? Or somewhere else? 

Well that's what I get for going off memory, I looked last summer and swore I saw 500 on their site, but I probably wasn't paying close enough attention. Yes out in Washington, a few anchors in more horizontal locations could allow water into the bolt hole.

cashmab · · Boston · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 1,923

If anyone is in need of RE-500 V3, I have a friend in masonry construction who has 7 leftover cartridges he is trying to sell for around $25 a tube. They are all 330ml with 01/2018 expiration. I can vouch for proper storage conditions, and he knows we use this stuff for climbing and how imperative it is to safety. PM if interested. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Fixed Hardware: Bolts & Anchors
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