Best adhesive for glue in anchors

Hey all,
we are developing a new crag in town and would like to go with glue in anchors and was interested in the best adhesive/resin being used in dolomite or limestone. Looking for a good combo of cost and availability. Any insights would be great.
cheers.

Technically (for Euro bolts to EN959) you are supposed to use the glue supplied or recommended by the manufacturer. However they all get the standard with either vinylester or epoxyacrylate so these will do, the epoxyacrylates being the better of the two types. The pure epoxies are much more expensive and have a few (more) health issues and are very slow curing. I don´t know any manufacturers who recommend its use.

Using the more normal types (polyester/vinylester/epoxyacrylate you can climb on the bolts after about 20mins depending on the temperature, roughly you check the time for the glue to go hard initially (the gel time) and multiply this by 4 to get the time for 80% of the final strength. Full cure is normally about 8 times gel time. How fast all this is depends on the temperature when you are working and the speed of the glue itself, there are fast ones and slow ones.
Something like Powers AC100+Gold would be good, if you find something else and you´re not sure then mail me (jim.titt@bolt-products.com), we have tested nearly everything on the market and the spec sheet will usually be enough.

Jim
Bolt Products
Germany

Installing glue in bolts is not rocket science, but you should get a lesson from someone with some experience. There are some good tips above, but everyone has their own system.

I used to mark where I wanted the bolts with a permanent marker and then drill and glue all at once. You need to be fairly dialed into your system so as not to waste nozzle tips, but 12-15 min is plenty of time to drill a hole, clean it, install the bolt and move on.

For cleaning, a round wire brush with stiff bristles and a blow tube are essential. Even better is to use compressed air from a can like the ones you'd use to clean a keyboard. Make sure the hole is CLEAN!

Getting a feel for the gun and the pressure is important or else you'll be either using too much or too little glue. Even once you get it down, you'll want a rag. I I used to carry a plastic bag of baby wipes on one side of my harness and a bag for dirty ones on the other. Release the pressure off the gun, hold it upright so the nozzle is pointing up, wipe it, lower it slowly and reach into your bolt bag.

When you install the bolt, pump it a bit and spin it to get all air pockets out. Take your time, don't be in a hurry. Have a straw or something tucked into your shoe that you can shape the glue with so it's not shitty looking on the outside of the bolt. Clean and smooth the excess and then grab a handful of dirt out of bag #4 and throw it at the bolt/glue to hide the bright red glue.

Take your time and have plenty of extra nozzels. Don't make a mistake because you are racing to keep glue from setting in the nozzle - you don't want to put a bad bolt in just to save a few bucks.

Hilti RE500 is bomber. There are dozens of glue in bolts on the market but make sure you go quality! Don't put something in the rock that isn't going to last at least a few decades.

Whatever you do, don't use the Hilti cartridges you insert into the bolt hole and try to mix by simply turning the bolt a few times. This does not adequately mix the epoxy. In fact, this glue cartridge is supposed to be mixed by a threaded rod inserted into the drill and not by hand.

Get the glue gun.

There are capsules which require spinning to harden (they use the friction of the particles in them to produce the heat to cure)and there are ones which merely need the bolt driving through to mix the components. In testing they give the strongest bolt but in reality they are not to be recommended since the quantities are rarely correct for the hole and the resin tends to run out of the hole. We don´t use them.

If the holes are dirty and wet then wash them out, you get this a lot drilling tufa areas. We´ve been doing testing with the cavers who always have wet holes and washing out and then drying a bit with a rag seems to wotrk o.k. The test series all pull the right numbers dampness doesn´t seem a concern though this is with glues for wetter conditions, the epoxyacrylates and the methylacrylates are usually rated for use underwater.

We use (personally) vinylester for normal conditions in limestone and epoxyacrylate where the rock is a bit damp or porous such as the sandier limestones and sandstone.

Like the guys say, you need to be organised. One hiccup jumaring or abseiling and the nozzles finished though if your smart you squeeze a bit more through every now and then. About 3 mins working time seems about the lower limit but jumaring in caves you need longer. I´ve got 45 bolts in on one nozzle (and two tubes) but you got to go fast!

If it is a hot day then keep the glue out of the sun and cool, we keep it in the fridge overnight and then use a cool bag until we are ready to go.

Jim

Jim

redhead a7 and sika anchor fix in single caulk tubes is what I get, I havent paid more than 20 bucks a tube online and at the big box hardware stores. the double tube guns are a thing of the past, I have one sitting in the basement.

hilti corp is the biggest scam, they make nice products but cost almost double of everyone else and never have sales or discounts. I do use hilti glue for large construction jobs when I have HUGE holes to fill and the architect calls for it but I aint buying it with my own cash.

I've been using the Red Head A7 as well. (Jim - any tests done on this?) I've found the single caulk tubes for $14 and nozzles for $1.30. Pretty good. The A7 dries to a nice subtle grey color which is nice and low profile. That Hilti stuff is often the nastiest of RED colors. Not great for limestone.

I too do the squeeze a bit through every few minutes trick. Seems to help. I'll also keep the tubes in the cooler until needed and have everything READY when the first squeezes start. Have to when dealing with TX heat.

I take my hat off to you guys. Glue is a pain in the ass. But in some rock it is the only way to go. Sounds like the process goes better once you have a system. Thanks for all the hard work.

wave bolts seem like a good idea, for the cost especially, if they are the real deal. EB in WI or MN? Did you get some access to a previous area or find something new?

I posted this on RC.com a while back: Wavebolt got a bit "enthusiastic" claiming their design was far superior to anything else out there which I felt, as JohnL points out, is a bit disingenuous considering how long Jim's bolts have been out.

I've used (and use) both Jim Titt's bolts and the Wave Bolt. They're damn close in performance, ease of use etc etc.

------

Glue: The Hilti is that awful red color. I use Epcon A7 and it's a nice grey color when cured. The key is to wipe the hole with a rag after inserting the bolt. Dripping messes are just poor form on the bolter's part. Some glues do drip more than others...

BOTH:
Are the best out there in terms of Glue Ins. Practically the same to be honest. Nothing else is close.

Bolt Product (Titt): Currently, they are formed for a 12mm hole (standard in Europe). They STAY in a 12mm hole (friction fit) just like a Wave Bolt but require Much less effort to pound in since just the last 3/4in create the friction fit. In a 1/2in hole (US standard) they don't have the friction fit and will slide out of steep holes. The US distributor is re-working the tooling here to accommodate the 1/2in hole size, so this issue will be moot soon. Only available in 304SS in the USA AFAIK. Lots of metal options if you order from Jim in Germany. Also available in larger sizes and lengths.
Bolt Products USA

Wave Bolt: 316SS which is nice. Unlike the Titt bolt, Waves do have a weld at the tip. They're a much tighter fit in a 1/2in hole and require pounding after maybe 1 1/2in of insertion in limestone. This is not an issue with your normal wall hammer but you do have to whack at it. You can wiggle the drill for a looser fit but I don't really do that. Probably easier to do in sandstone. (I've since read that in harder stone like basalt or granite this can be MUCH MUCH harder to do and really needs an oversized hole) Available in 1/2 and 5/8in but only one length right now I believe.

Glue Use: I've found that the Titt bolts require less glue than the Wave per 1/2in hole which I attribute to the larger metal volume of the Titt design in the hole. BOTH designs have profiles where the glue fully locks the bolt in the hole. Even though you COULD yank on a Wave Bolt because of the heavy friction fit I doubt it's a great idea. You don't want to disturb the bolt as the glue cures.

Right now, I use the Titt bolts for vertical rock placements so I don't have to hammer and the Wave's for steep stuff. Once the Titt is tweaked for a 1/2in hole it really will be 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other with a few minor differences influencing your choice. If I were to pick only one, I'd probably lean to a Titt Bolt (once the 1/2in interference fit change is implemented). I think the fit and finish is slightly superior to the Wave and with all the invaluable information Jim offers up to the community I feel like saying thanks with my $$. That's not to say the Wave guys aren't nice too...

Both are great improvements on the old-school glue ins and are catching on in many soft(er) rock areas.

T to B: Hilti HSL, Powers 5 Piece 1/2in x 3.75, Hilti KB3 3/8x3.75in, Hilti KB3 1/2x5.5in, Wave Bolt 1/2 x 4in, Titt Bolt 12x100mm, Titt 12x150mm, Titt 16x150mm

I've drilled out the mixing nozzles on A7 tubes and mixed with the Titt bolts as I push them in and they tested out almost identical to the ones glued with an intact mixing nozzle. An open nozzle paired with an old coat hanger to clean it out after each use means less rush, especially when you are only bolting anchors on gear lines, or bolting ground up ascents. I'm sure I'm going catch some flack for posting this, but that's just my 2 cents.

Mitchell Allen wrote:I've drilled out the mixing nozzles on A7 tubes and mixed with the Titt bolts as I push them in and they tested out almost identical to the ones glued with an intact mixing nozzle. An open nozzle paired with an old coat hanger to clean it out after each use means less rush, especially when you are only bolting anchors on gear lines, or bolting ground up ascents. I'm sure I'm going catch some flack for posting this, but that's just my 2 cents.

"almost" is the kicker here for me, I guess if its vertical or less than vert and the holes are drilled at a good angle its fine but mixing tubes are cheap

Mitchell Allen wrote:I've drilled out the mixing nozzles on A7 tubes and mixed with the Titt bolts as I push them in and they tested out almost identical to the ones glued with an intact mixing nozzle. An open nozzle paired with an old coat hanger to clean it out after each use means less rush, especially when you are only bolting anchors on gear lines, or bolting ground up ascents. I'm sure I'm going catch some flack for posting this, but that's just my 2 cents.

It´s o.k. We do it as well when we are running short.
In fact we were testing some (made in the US) glue in conjunction with the British Cavers Association and they got dissapointing results in their pull tests which matched the results we got. We re-tested mixing the glue by hand and identified the problem was with the nozzles which were being supplied. The nozzles vary and my glue supplier will sell ETA ones and non-ETA ones (the Euro Technical Approval for the glue system. The short ones with less mixing elements are the non-approved ones as a generality. Cutting a tube open and mixing the contents by hand was the most reliable by far compared with the mixing nozzles.
That said, the difference between not performing as well as expected and the normal results was the difference between 49kN and 58kN which is fundamentally irrelevant, just technically interesting (for us at least)!

TR purist wrote: "almost" is the kicker here for me, I guess if its vertical or less than vert and the holes are drilled at a good angle its fine but mixing tubes are cheap

Like Jim said, almost identical is comparing differences like 50kN and 55kN. With that much force, I guarantee something else is breaking first. You're only as strong as your weakest link, and anything hovering around 10,000 lbf is NOT my weakest link.

Mitchell

Mitchell Allen wrote: Like Jim said, almost identical is comparing differences like 50kN and 55kN. With that much force, I guarantee something else is breaking first. You're only as strong as your weakest link, and anything hovering around 10,000 lbf is NOT my weakest link. Mitchell

Making something weaker to speed things up/make life cheaper is not my style I guess. Introducing pockets of air by solely mixing in the hole is what happens and I have to assume its quite messy as well. Plus those Titt bolts with the twist could easily trap a high percentage hardener in the twist.

The last time I had to put an anchor in with A7/Sika(cant remember) was a big old stainless eye bolt about a foot above the high tide line for a dock to tie up to. I had no new mixing tubes so I mixed in the 5/8" hole and thought I had done a pretty damn good job, the color was right and the next day it seemed bomber. A week later the tide came up with a storm and covered it for a couple hours, the next day it had softened up and came right out with ease. I have to blame it on the mix not being right. If it had mixed in the tube AND the hole(which I always do a little of) this probably would have been bomber.

I'll save the shortcuts for bushwhacking, call me cautious!

JB Weld has worked pretty well for me! I just load it up into a caulking gun.

Has anyone used Hilti HIT-HY 70 adhesive for glue-ins?

Why are you even considering it? Are you bolting something to a brick/block wall?

John Byrnes wrote:Why are you even considering it? Are you bolting something to a brick/block wall?

There is no Hilti glue that specifically says for rock climbing anchors. Yet lots of people use Hilti glue.

According to Hilti it is for use with hollow base, OR SOLID, and grouted concrete. Have you ever used glue-ins?

What do you use?

Hilti HIT-HY 70 Hybrid Adhesive is a dependable solution for anyone needing to anchoring rebar and threaded rod into hollow base materials such as masonry, or solid and grouted concrete. Even in near freezing temperatures, this hybrid adhesive dispenses quickly and easily. Get started on your anchoring into masonry project quickly and reliably with Hilti HIT-HY 70 Hybrid Adhesives.

Suited to solve multi-wythe anchoring problems in renovation and seismic upgrades of unreinforced masonry buildings
Reliable performance even when size and location of voids are unknown, or brick and mortar are inconsistent
Listings and approvals include: international code council ESR for hollow masonry, grouted masonry and red clay brick (pending); ESR for URM - ESR 3342; City of Los Angeles RR-25947 for URM

Brian wrote: Why are you even considering it? Are you bolting something to a brick/block wall? There is no Hilti glue that specifically says for rock climbing anchors. Yet lots of people use Hilti glue. According to Hilti it is for use with hollow base, OR SOLID, and grouted concrete. Have you ever used glue-ins? What do you use? Hilti HIT-HY 70 Hybrid Adhesive is a dependable solution for anyone needing to anchoring rebar and threaded rod into hollow base materials such as masonry, or solid and grouted concrete. Even in near freezing temperatures, this hybrid adhesive dispenses quickly and easily. Get started on your anchoring into masonry project quickly and reliably with Hilti HIT-HY 70 Hybrid Adhesives. Suited to solve multi-wythe anchoring problems in renovation and seismic upgrades of unreinforced masonry buildings Reliable performance even when size and location of voids are unknown, or brick and mortar are inconsistent Listings and approvals include: international code council ESR for hollow masonry, grouted masonry and red clay brick (pending); ESR for URM - ESR 3342; City of Los Angeles RR-25947 for URM

If you are using Hilti Glues, use the HY200.  Don't use glues like the HY70 made of polyester.  Those glues have a weak performance in stones and are much influenced by dusts or bad cleaning of the hole.  Obviously, there is not only Hilti, we are selling similar glue under the name of AC100Pro (hybrid vynilester) and have add excellent results in various tests on stones.  Sometimes, depending on the stones, we have even had higher results than in concrete.  You should be able to find in your local fastener distributor similar glues.

Besides that, another interesting option to fix in stones is the technology of the concrete screw, like the HUS 3 of Hilti, or the Powers Wedge Bolt (known as Blue-Tip Screwbolt in Europe) and similars screws from various distributors.  At various tests we have done, those were showing excellent behaviors, much better than the classic wedge anchors like the HST 3 of Hilti.  And even, if you speak about seismic behavior, the concrete screw are performing better than the other mechanical anchors. 

Just go old school and use elmer's glue.