What have we done... or why the Peaks weren't posted

Colonel Mustard wrote: ...I sense from some of those posting a desire to retreat into a provincial and elitist sense of entitlement, ... That's ugly.

Colonel Mustard wrote: ...experiencing a TIA?

gription wrote: tic?

gription wrote: How is keeping your local crag off the net entitlement? Especially if you bought the bolts and set the routes? If anything the regular "users" are the people with the sense of entitlement.

Colonel Mustard wrote: When the cat's out of the bag already?

One of your fellow climbers communicating here. Of course you narcissistic photogs have proof that the routes at the Peaks were hand-drilled. Just saying.

Who takes selfies while bolting? Is that a thing I have to get into now so I'll be a true "developer" with a bosch in hand? LOL

I place all bolts by hand

Man, what drama.

Please, take the beta off the internet, so the tears of the after-work outdoor gym seshers of Flagstaff may be abated and they can pretend the crowds, dogs, and shit that were there before the routes were posted are all good again.

Hobo is in national forest. But im glad you enjoy the routes there!

Ok

In all honestly every area is blowing the F up regardless. You look at Boulder and the Denver metro area in the past 5 years. It's blown up to a ridiculous nature. You have to be at a crag at sunup to get some uninterrupted pitches in and all the great camping spots are carnivals with shit and TP everywhere. Wanna do a 14er? Expected to sit on the summit of the easier ones with a couple hundred of your closet friends.

The west is exploding, and quite honestly not with the most desirable people. I was lucky to grow up a scout, and learned how to respect nature. I don't think others were lucky enough to grow up outside, or at least they don't show it in their behavior.

People kinda suck alot, and it's going to get worse. This is going on everywhere.

Scott McMahon wrote:In all honestly every area is blowing the F up regardless. You look at Boulder and the Denver metro area in the past 5 years. It's blown up to a ridiculous nature. You have to be at a crag at sunup to get some uninterrupted pitches in and all the great camping spots are carnivals with shit and TP everywhere. Wanna do a 14er? Expected to sit on the summit of the easier ones with a couple hundred of your closet friends. The west is exploding, and quite honestly not with the most desirable people. I was lucky to grow up a scout, and learned how to respect nature. I don't think others were lucky enough to grow up outside, or at least they don't show it in their behavior. People kinda suck alot, and it's going to get worse. This is going on everywhere.

All this drama from a person, who the last time I remember interacting with, was posting pictures and babbling about sport climbing on the reservation somewhere in AZ... I guess you really can choose your battles. You seem unstable from a state away...

-Matt

Does anyone remember this book? Maybe this isn't quite the problem being discussed here but it is an (t)issue at a lot of crags. A little outdoor education never hurts.

Here is Chris Kalous and Lisa Hathaway's fun take (2012) on this topic and the Peaks in particular:

enormocast.com/episode-2-ta…

Scott is right. The problem is people and it will grow. one other thing. Climbing is special in many ways but probably the most commonly forgotten way is that the people who discover, reveal, and create the routes we all enjoy do so at great cost of time, labor, and expense, and the rest of us climb all we want for free. So perhaps if you aren't fully invested in this labor of love then you should enjoy the routes, say thank you, and climb on. If you find yourself sitting at a keyboard lobbing digital assaults, get outside. before the mp forums steal your soul.

Great first post Dean. It has been crazy to watch the crag become busier and busier as the years have gone by. I remember going up there and getting on whatever looked doable and it being a rarity to see more than a few people. I also agree with other posts that things ebb and flow. I think that climbing is growing at a faster rate than ever before, and that with this growth there are a few trends, which i bet transcend many different outdoor recreation activities and places.

There is a huge mentorship gap especially surrounding local ethics and skillsets. With increased accessibility to recreation comes people with different value sets recreating in they way they feel is appropriate. Also when people get in above their heads, feel uncomfortable, or don't come prepared, they do dumb stuff.

When I started climbing about 15 years ago in Vedauwoo I was lucky enough to receive great mentorship from experienced climbers who had a deep rooted connection to the area. With the mentorship came the ethics of the area, and the responsibility to understand the ethic of any area I visited.

I don't think this exists nearly as much as it used to. Education by signage is great, but the way people recreate is rooted more deeply in morals they formed when they learned how to climb and before, and simply seeing a sign, or reading information online, is not always enough to change their behavior. If someone learns how to climb in a gym with little mentorship, and then climbs at their local crag, which may have very very different ethics from the Peaks Crag or other Flagstaff area crags, they are going to treat every area the same.

I also think that with the increase in the number of people climb has come a certain sense of entitlement based in a lack of understanding. Many new climbers I've seen don't have any respect for the hard work and effort that goes into development in all capacities. They have never been asked to give back to the community, or perhaps a small percent just don't want to, they just use the crag because it is there.

My two cents,

We must try to mentor new climbers more and do a better job passing down ethics.
As a local community we need to hold climbers publicly accountable for they way they choose to recreate in our local area. If we see something happening we don't like, we need to speak up in a respectful and teaching way. If many of the climbers present at the crag hold a general respect for the area and ethics it will make it much harder to trash the place and do dumb things.

The peaks crag, the mountain, and neighboring peaks, are truly special and spiritual place for many of us on many varying levels. I do think it is up to us to NOT LET it get trashed.

(on a sidenote, I just got back from Colorado, and in relation to an earlier post about the crazy amount of people on 14'ers, this is a great example into the future of how an area could be "loved to death," and at all costs is what we should try to avoid.)

^ great thoughts Jacob. It's the "REI syndrome". I've posted before how it took me years to build my rack, and splitboard set up etc; all the while researching, learning, reading books, climbing and whatnot.

With more disposable income and sales galore alot of people just go in and buy a double rack or $1200 worth of ski gear. Boom!!!

I was reading about Henry Barber / Robert Underhill, and their style and ethics while I was still playing with my single set of nuts. (Tee hee).

With new climbers being able to buy a rope and rack and climbing 5.13rx at the gym, it seems they don't need mentors....or so they think. They act accordingly as well when you try to help or point out issues.

After being a campground host in Colorado and Arizona, I suppose it is a bit ironic to me to read about climbers crying over the insensitivity of their fellow rock lovers towards "their" favorite secret crag.

After 35+ years of climbing, and 5 years of cleaning up after climbers when they camp, I am frankly amazed that they ever manage to crap indoors, away from wells, without a dog along, leaving PowRBar corners and rope tags and plenty of impact while sporting their new AF T-shirt or bumper sticker, like paying for someone's Boulder office space makes you an environmentalist.

People are filthy animals, and climbers are among the worst offenders.

Period.