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Rappel rope caught at top. Strategies?

Alexey Dynkin · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0
Brian Wiesner wrote: So let's say I (or anyone) saw some anchors like this and decided to throw some quick links on there. What I'm getting is that this decision would make some people happy and some people angry and there's no real way to know what was originally there or what the original route developer wanted. So how do those decisions get made and how to routes get improved?
Not to add to the chorus of criticism, and come across as a jerk, but this question makes it sound like you're still approaching this from the wrong angle. Let me put it this way. I carry things like quick-links or rap rings when I go canyoneering, or on long trad routes, or alpine routes that see little traffic. I've never carried them for single pitch, TR, or sport climbing, and never had I encountered a situation where I wish I had, in 10+ years of climbing. As others have mentioned, if you come across the situation you did, chances are there's another option to rappel (or descend) that doesn't require adding additional hardware. Worst-case scenario, if you don't see any alternative, suck it up and leave a sling and a couple of biners that you won't miss too much. At the end of the day, $10 or so isn't much to pay for getting off safely and with your (much more expensive and valuable) rope with you and undamaged.

Good luck!
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Brian Wiesner wrote: So let's say I (or anyone) saw some anchors like this and decided to throw some quick links on there. What I'm getting is that this decision would make some people happy and some people angry and there's no real way to know what was originally there or what the original route developer wanted. So how do those decisions get made and how to routes get improved?
OFFS. The route you're talking about is a fucking walk-off. You have two bolts at the top in a horizontal surface. Get used to it.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
jkd159 wrote: Rich, I do have a question for you about the inchworm technique you propose (hopefully you are still following this thread). In the situation you describe, I would tie into the end of the rope and lead (free or aid) until I reached the other end of the rope. At that point I would tie prussiks on both ropes and ascend to the top. I'm wondering why you recommend inchworm over leading on the pulled end of the rope? Thanks!
I've done many rappels in which the re-climbing route would not be able to reach the loose end because the climbing route doesn't go straight up the rappel route. A second (but very unlikely) problem is if some kind of tangle is the reason the rope won't pull. In that case, the leader leading on the end of the rope that remains might be surprised to find they can't reach the end. But perhaps the main application is the worst-case scenario when the rappel hangs after pulling free of the anchor, a nasty situation that has happened to me twice.

The party has to decide how to get out of the pickle they are in. I think there will be times when the inchworm technique is the only solution (and times, hopefully rare, when there is nothing to do but cut off the section of rope you have and try to get down with it).
Josh Lipko · · Charlotte · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 10
Brian Wiesner wrote: So let's say I (or anyone) saw some anchors like this and decided to throw some quick links on there. What I'm getting is that this decision would make some people happy and some people angry and there's no real way to know what was originally there or what the original route developer wanted. So how do those decisions get made and how to routes get improved?
https://www.accessfund.org/meet-the-access-fund/our-network/local-climbing-organizations

Looking at that page, Prescott even has its own coalition.
facebook.com/prescottclimbers
BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

^^^ Nice work, Josh.

This man did some work for you, take advantage.

taipan jam · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 30
rgold wrote: I've done many rappels in which the re-climbing route would not be able to reach the loose end because the climbing route doesn't go straight up the rappel route. A second (but very unlikely) problem is if some kind of tangle is the reason the rope won't pull. In that case, the leader leading on the end of the rope that remains might be surprised to find they can't reach the end. But perhaps the main application is the worst-case scenario when the rappel hangs after pulling free of the anchor, a nasty situation that has happened to me twice. The party has to decide how to get out of the pickle they are in. I think there will be times when the inchworm technique is the only solution (and times, hopefully rare, when there is nothing to do but cut off the section of rope you have and try to get down with it).
Well worth re-reading and thinking about...

It's happened to me as well, rappelling the Stovelegs on a rainy night. After pulling a rap, it got hung. Quite desperate to "relead" up to the snag with part of the rope we had down (jumaring up the "fixed" single strand) without knowing what you are caught on or if you could just "pull" the rope at any point with your bodyweight.

20' below where the rope was caught I was out of "lead" rope so I had to untie and went to direct aid to back myself up, not a bad tactic, but oh so laborious. Luckily there was the crack...

...especially since when I got to the snag and I found that the only thing holding me was the very end of the rope melded into a thin part of the crack by the manufacturers tag...
jktinst · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 55
taipan jam wrote: Well worth re-reading and thinking about... It's happened to me as well, rappelling the Stovelegs on a rainy night. After pulling a rap, it got hung. ... 20' below where the rope was caught I was out of "lead" rope so I had to untie and went to direct aid to back myself up...
Was that a real rope-stretcher of a rappel or a particularly zig-zaggy lead back up? I remember reading Rich's description of the inchworm technique in an older post and thinking that those were the two circumstances (probably combined together) where it would clearly not work to simply lead the rappel route back up on the free end of the rope till reaching the doubled section (and self-belaying after that if the snag happens to be higher up), as he indicates in the first part of his post below.

rgold wrote: I've done many rappels in which the re-climbing route would not be able to reach the loose end because the climbing route doesn't go straight up the rappel route. A second (but very unlikely) problem is if some kind of tangle is the reason the rope won't pull. In that case, the leader leading on the end of the rope that remains might be surprised to find they can't reach the end. But perhaps the main application is the worst-case scenario when the rappel hangs after pulling free of the anchor, a nasty situation that has happened to me twice...
Regarding the tangle situation, I suppose that it could happen that strong winds whipped up the loose end of the rope as it is being pulled towards the anchor and made a balled-up mess of it that both jammed the rope and kept it out of reach but, like Rich, I would think that quite unlikely. Again, it would have to be a very big tangle and/or a real rope-stretcher of a rappel.

Finally, if the rope got caught after coming out of the anchor, you should still have enough rope piled at your feet to lead back up to the snag, tied into the free end of the rope. I can't think of any specific circumstance in this particular situation that you could not sort out by doing this (again with the condition that you can actually lead back up to the snag, understanding that, in windy situations, it may not be right along the rappel path).

So I agree that the inchworm technique may be the only one that will work in some very specific circumstances to recover the rope without cutting, but if it's possible to lead back up to the snag (a requisite for the inchworm technique too), doing it on the free end of the rope should do the trick in most cases.

I guess that a key take-home message is to be especially wary of snags when pulling down a rope-stretcher.
taipan jam · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 30

Perhaps I didn't describe the situation well enough, but the "lead" rope was about 20' short after leading out to the very end of it below the snag (rope end snagged there was no doubled section---it got caught on the pull itself after it came down from the chains) so I had to untie completely to get up to the snag. I backed myself up with direct aid while I jugged the rest of the distance.

If there was no crack there to back me up (putting in gear), I would have been on the rope caught on the end sticker without any backups, fairly certain death if it pulled out there 700' up or so. Of course by that time you may be thinking "hey it held for the last 100 feet or so, so theoretically it should hold the rest (right?)...heh. Of course retreats off Grade 6 on wild stormy nights are always the best times to theory craft...right?

Ron Thompson · · Idlewild, CA · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 125

When I rap off multi pitch routes I use a 0 ring rap ring. The 0 ring is secured by webbing . Once I rap down a pitch I see if I can pull the rope with ease if not it can be corrected on top before the next person raps down.

taipan jam · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 30
Ron Thompson wrote:When I rap off multi pitch routes I use a 0 ring rap ring. The 0 ring is secured by webbing . Once I rap down a pitch I see if I can pull the rope with ease if not it can be corrected on top before the next person raps down.
That's all good advice, (although I use a poor mans locker, not ring--and if they are the hollow alumi rings, two should be used...) what I am saying is if you climb big multipitch, especially in places like Red Rocks, there is some probability of getting your rope stuck after you pulled with ease.

That is what happened to us. Rope pulled (with ease), but got snagged way up the pitch...so best to plan out what you might do here in front of the monitor(?)

A perfect example is Epinephrine at RR Last time I was out there, the bottom chimneys were a graveyard for stuck ropes. Anyone ever get in there to clean those? Way to narrow to squeeze in there for a mesomorph like myself...
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

That's the penalty for not finishing Epi and walking off.

jktinst · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 55
taipan jam wrote:Perhaps I didn't describe the situation well enough, ... (rope end snagged there was no doubled section---it got caught on the pull itself after it came down from the chains)...
OK. First let me be clear too: I am not, in any way, suggesting that the leader climbing back up to the snag could rely on the snagged rope to potentially hold him if he were to fall. As you illustrated, that snagged strand might hold enough to help you climb back up quickly but, obviously, you cannot trust your life to it. Also, as you pointed out, the part I wrote about reaching the doubled rope section and self-belaying after that obviously only concerns ropes that get stuck before sliding out of the anchor (note of caution here too: better be sure that the doubled rope section is indeed still threaded through the anchor and not just snagged somewhere before starting to jug it).

Your "it got hung after pulling a rap" does indeed suggest that the snag occurred after the rope slid out of the anchor. I wasn't paying close enough attention to your post but, mostly, I still don't understand how you ended up 20ft short of the snag when you led back up, tied into the free end of the rope. Were you using a static cord tagline to pull down the rappel or twin-only ropes? If you were using single and/or double ropes for the rappel, by the time the end slid out of the anchor, you would already have a pile of rope at your feet that should be long enough to lead climb all the way back up to the anchor itself (let alone to the snag), unless you could not lead climb on it (static cord or single strand of twin) or unless, again, this was a rope-stretcher rappel and leading back up meant significant zig-zags.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Brian Wiesner wrote: This I did not know, so I'd be curious to learn more. In what way are they upside down? and how is it possible to install them upside down when they can just be flipped over at any time? (I assume you're referring to the picture in his post).
The barrels should be positioned so that vibration and gravity tightens them, the way they are shown any vibration will unscrew them. At least one person has died from this.
FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
Jim Titt wrote: The barrels should be positioned so that vibration and gravity tightens them, the way they are shown any vibration will unscrew them. At least one person has died from this.
Does this mean locking carabiners, on a toprope, can be "upside down"?
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

Put them opposed and opposite and you won't have to worry about their orientation or if they flip while unattended.

Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

Stuck ropes come two ways (at least ), completely stuck and you have both ends, or something like the OP posted, which obviously did pull most of the way. When you have both ends any competent climber should be able to prussic/knot off/ or climb and knot off to remedy. Having only one end is tougher.

If the rope was pulling, albeit with difficulty, moving out from the cliff sometimes helps. A second pull-ee is good too but it's hard to get the effort of two people pulling into the mix. I have had good luck with a prussic ( you could use any bight too), and two slings, one for each.

Kevin Keith · · Prescott, AZ · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 2,572

Hi Brian,

My name is Kevin and I placed those anchors with a grant from the ASCA. These replaced some hardware store "glue-ins" that were inappropriate for climbing anchors. I did not place a rap chain on the anchor mainly because the route is very short and the walk off is quite easy. Also, as mentioned earlier, there are other ring anchors available in the vicinity. Sorry to hear about the debacle with your friend. Luckily this is a great learning opportunity for you as a mentor and him as a novice climber. I am quite comfortable with the placement of quick links and a rap chain on this anchor. I suggest you look over the Fixe website and purchase the appropriate hardware. Feel free to contact me or MacM if you have any questions. We have been slowly trying to make the High Rappel a safer climbing area. In the meantime I hope you can appreciate that technology is not a replacement for good judgement, skill and experience. Good luck to you. Also, please consider joining the Prescott Climber's Coalition, The Access Fund and The American Safe Climbing Association. All of these organizations have played a vital role in the Prescott Climbing experience.

Cheers,

kevininprescott

Zac St Jules · · New Hampshire · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 1,188

Shit yeah. Great post Kevin.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Kevin Keith wrote:Hi Brian, My name is Kevin and I placed those anchors with a grant from the ASCA. These replaced some hardware store "glue-ins" that were inappropriate for climbing anchors. I did not place a rap chain on the anchor mainly because the route is very short and the walk off is quite easy. Also, as mentioned earlier, there are other ring anchors available in the vicinity. Sorry to hear about the debacle with your friend. Luckily this is a great learning opportunity for you as a mentor and him as a novice climber. I am quite comfortable with the placement of quick links and a rap chain on this anchor. I suggest you look over the Fixe website and purchase the appropriate hardware. Feel free to contact me or MacM if you have any questions. We have been slowly trying to make the High Rappel a safer climbing area. In the meantime I hope you can appreciate that technology is not a replacement for good judgement, skill and experience. Good luck to you. Also, please consider joining the Prescott Climber's Coalition, The Access Fund and The American Safe Climbing Association. All of these organizations have played a vital role in the Prescott Climbing experience. Cheers, kevininprescott
+1, especially:
"I hope you can appreciate that technology is not a replacement for good judgement, skill and experience."
Scott E. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 20
Jim Titt wrote: The barrels should be positioned so that vibration and gravity tightens them, the way they are shown any vibration will unscrew them. At least one person has died from this.
Thanks for this explanation.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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