Rappel rope caught at top. Strategies?

Super Fluke wrote:If this is not available you will need to leave behind locking carabiners to rappel from.

You don't need locking biners to rappel from in the situation described in this thread.

I apologize for any repeated info here, but I didn't read every reply to the end.

First, your rope absolutely got stuck because of your decision to rap off the hangers. This anchor set-up was not intended to be used as a rap station, probably because there is a walk-off and even when the hike is "long and difficult", sometimes a walk-off is the right way to descend and that decision looks like it was intentional on the part of whoever installed these anchors.

A good rap station will have quick links or chains or rappel rings similar to what is shown in the photo above - and they not only provide a smooth surface to pull your rope through, but the chains bring the two rap rings close together. The wide angle of the two bolt hangers, the friction of the hangers themselves, and the friction of (what looks like) the rope running over a ledge, rather than hanging freely - all combined to get your rope stuck. The free end being "trapped" by the end you were pulling on was just the final straw in sticking your rope, but on a proper rap station the same rope orientation would PROBABLY not have caused any problems at all.

So, know your descent before you climb - sometimes it is a rap, sometimes it is a walk-off, sometimes you have a choice.

That being said, of course it is possible to get your rope stuck even when you don't try to rap off hangers. So to answer the other part of your question, what to do in those situations -
I actually have a nice mini-article on stuck rope prevention and fixing w/ photos and everything that is really helpful, I'll see if I can figure out how to send it to you by PM. Here are some of the highlights:

-pay attention when you rap. Make sure there are no twists in your ropes above your belay device, and try to keep them untwisted after you reach the ground.
-pay attention when you rap. Take note of any rope-eating cracks or rope-snagging flakes or other features, and take steps to redirect the rope around these and keep it away from cracks if possible. (if you see old pieces of cut rope lodged into a crack, that's an excellent indication that crack is sad news for ropes)
-test-pull - the first climber down gets off rappel, and test pulls a few feet of rope to make sure it's pulling smoothly. Then the partner can recenter the rope and rap. If it is difficult to pull, the second partner can try to make adjustments before rapping.
-if you tied knots in the end of your rope to rap, make sure they are UNtied before pulling the rope.
-if you are tying two ropes together, use an EDK (which is a flat knot and less likely to snag) and be sure you know which rope is the correct one to pull.
-step away from the cliff when pulling (if possible). Increasing the angle you are pulling can help reduce friction from pulling over ledges, etc.
-once it is stuck, try to imagine what is the problem (from all your careful attention-paying from earlier!) Try pulling the rope back the other way, try flicking the rope, try untwisting the rope.
-Straight-up pulling as hard as you possibly can should be an absolute last resort as it can make the problem worse.

And finally, if it's totally stuck, and you are on the ground, seriously consider walking away before trying any rope ascension or other shenanigans, especially as a less experienced climber. You getting home safely is far more important than you going home with your rope, though it may not seem like it at the time. If you are on the ground safely, your rope has done it's job and anything else is just a nice bonus.

Hope you found that helpful, and if not, feel free to ignore it. It's difficult to ask an honest beginner question in this environment and when you do, you probably have to expect a certain amount of teasing - learn from the helpful comments, ignore the unhelpful. But most experienced climbers are happy to teach and help someone learn, especially if they have a good attitude - of humility and willingness to learn, so try not to get defensive. You're new, you made a mistake, we've all been there. You'll learn faster if you stay humble and open-minded. Good luck!

I'm thinking some of you didn't read my second post, but that's fine. Thanks for your responses. The reason I asked the question in the first place is that I've never rapped from these kinds of anchors (yes, I've read books) so I honestly didn't know the exact forces involved (levels of friction).

The question of: "Could the rope have still gotten pinned like that had my friend used the correct anchors" has been answered (Answer: possibly, but less likely).

I know to not rappel down anchors like he did, which is why I corrected him as soon as I saw the picture he took (the one in the orig post). I always keep a couple extra quick links on me for stuff like this, but again, there were good rap anchors a few feet away for him to walk to (big, flat surface; no traversing needed) so quick links were not needed.

I've heard a few of you say things about walking down to "avoid the risk" of rappelling, which is fine for some people. Everyone has a particular level of risk they are willing to accept in the climbing world. To me, rapping is way more fun and faster than hiking and is a part of climbing. Even people who don't/can't climb enjoy rappelling for the sake of rappelling.

Also, I hear people say I should get a mentor, and yet no one has been willing to fill that role, so if someone with more experience than me would like to climb in AZ, I would be more than happy to accept that offer.

Brian,

One more important aspect that I would like to stress, if you may. We should have talked about this more.

Communication was a big part of the failure here, and we have all had this problem at one time or another.

You and your partner must have a game plan before executing any climb. A primary plan and some form of plan B or C if it comes down to it. Your partner not knowing/using this other rappel station while you knew it was there does not bode well, and in fact proves there was a failure in communication.

This is not to ridicule you... just something to think about all the time when you are tied in or have a friend's life in your hands.

Take your time.
Enjoy the scenery.
Double check everything!
Have a game plan and a way to communicate intentions on both sides of the rope.
Always ask questions and want to learn.

Someone else can add more.

Have fun! Be SAFE! Don't do it unless you can get out of it!

BigFeet wrote:Brian, One more important aspect that I would like to stress, if you may. Communication was the failure here, and we have all had this problem at one time or another. You and your partner must have a game plan before executing any climb. A primary plan and some form of plan B or C if it comes down to it. Your partner not knowing/using this other rappel station while you knew it was there does not bode well, and in fact proves there was a failure in communication. This is not to ridicule you... just something to think about all the time when you are tied in or have a friend's life in your hands. Have fun! Be SAFE! Don't do it unless you can get out of it!

Hey - great point. Actually, I've been thinking about looking for ways to improve that. Looks like you read my post, which said that I told him about the correct anchors before he went up and he said okay (and then immediately forgot). Does there exist a technological system (my wheelhouse) that helps this problem that climbers can use? For example a small short-range radio type thing like a Bluetooth headset that can be used in windy/loud conditions?

There are multiple ways to communicate. Get familiar with more than two.

1. Plan on the ground before lift off.
2. Use your voices during the climb.
3. Have a rope tug code you can both understand and is easy to remember.
4. A visual code works in some cases.

If all else fails... don't cut the rope on your partner! You are to parish with him.

Keep using that google thingy and this ridiculous,and loveable forum. Read all you can, and learn German so you can read and understand some of bearbreeder's posts. :)

I'm going to try not to repeat all the very accurate criticisms, other than to say that yes, anything can happen and, if you do enough rappels, will happen when it comes to snagging.

One of the more surprising things to me about the pictured situation is that the team managed to pull that much rope through those inappropriate anchors. The chances that the rope couldn't be budged from the outset are high, and this leads to a question: was the difficulty of rappel pull tested before the rappeller came down? If not, it is a good idea to learn to do this. If so, then wouldn't someone below have noticed the ropes hadn't been moved to the correct rap anchors?

The situation pictured is, in a remote multipitch setting, close to the ultimate nightmare, because the party could be totally hosed, having no rope at all to continue down with and no ability to get back up. For this reason, one wants to make a habit of extra vigilance about rappel retrieval, so that good habits are formed before you end up screaming for a rescue with no one around to hear.

A second lesson is that beginners cannot be trusted to do the right thing, even if they have been properly instructed ahead of time. Anyone who has done much guiding can provide multiple stories about this, and the OP himself illustrates the point with the comment, "...I told him about the correct anchors before he went up and he said okay (and then immediately forgot)." Those who are giving the instructions and those who are receiving the instructions should both understand this. From that perspective, the biggest mistake of all was letting the person who set up that situation do so unsupervised. We can all be glad that all he did was get the rope stuck, as opposed to getting himself dead at the base.

Finally, a note about getting back up if the rope hangs with the short end out of sight and evidence from the middle mark, if there is one, or else the joining knot, if there are two ropes, that the short end is not near the anchor. In this situation, you can't lead back up on the other end of the rope because it is too short to reach the anchor.

In this case, the "inchworm technique" is available if it is possible to climb, either free or aid, up the rappel route. It isn't at all hard to do but is not so easy to describe. To use the inchworm technique, the leader makes sure as much rope as possible is pulled down, ties a figure-eight loop in the rope running up to the anchor, and clips it to the harness tie-in points. This gives the leader the most slack available for climbing up, and the leader basically climbs up until there is no more of that slack.

As the leader moves up, the rope in front running to the anchor will accumulate more an more slack. When the leader runs out of slack from below, they need to have a stance, preferably one created by placing a solid piece. (Obviously, the leader stops when they find a place to get in such a piece, even if they haven't used up all the slack from below.) The leader ties a new figure-eight loop in the nearly taut section of the line above, clips it to the harness tie-in points, and unclips the previous loop, thereby dropping all the accumulated slack back down to the belayer, who takes it all in and continues to belay.

The process is repeated until the anchor is reached.

mountainhick wrote:Guys fixin for a Darwin award.

My first thought as well.

If this is the worst anchor you ever rap off you'll be fine. Don't forget there is an entire sport dedicated to raping off sketchy shit called canyoneering.

I'm still confused about how your buddy top-roped to the wrong anchors

Z.St.Jules wrote:Yall be gentle. Just give instruction without being assholes.

I know that sound likes the PC thing to do but it is short sighted. Despite some fairly good responses up stream from the usual suspects I don't think the best approach is to encourage people to seek anonymous off the cuff instruction over the internet. Even the usual suspects are just spending a couple of minutes responding. Far better to just pile on and encourage the OP to seek personalized live instruction.

Eric Engberg wrote: Far better to just pile on and encourage the OP to seek personalized live instruction.

Maybe an admin could just go punch him.

Eric Engberg wrote: I know that sound likes the PC thing to do but it is short sighted. Despite some fairly good responses up stream from the usual suspects I don't think the best approach is to encourage people to seek anonymous off the cuff instruction over the internet. Even the usual suspects are just spending a couple of minutes responding. Far better to just pile on and encourage the OP to seek personalized live instruction.

I hear that. Of course internet instruction is no match for mentorship - but still feel like that shit can be done in a more helpful way than just ripping folks. Do we want to be the kind of people that discourage questions and discourage a supportive climbing community? Nay nay

Yeah yeah...Threading ropes through regular hangers is dumb.

I was curious as to what sort of odds of actually dying when threading your rope through hangers.

Couldn't find much data on it, only an MP user (Geir) did some tests with 7mm cord and found it held to 2000lb - mountainproject.com/v/tying…

Any other tests out there?

Z.St.Jules wrote:Yall be gentle. Just give instruction without being assholes.

+1
Rule #1

Z.St.Jules wrote: I hear that. Of course internet instruction is no match for mentorship - but still feel like that shit can be done in a more helpful way than just ripping folks. Do we want to be the kind of people that discourage questions and discourage a supportive climbing community? Nay nay

Ok - how about providing pointers to the answers rather then rewriting them every time?

Brian Wiesner wrote: Also, I hear people say I should get a mentor, and yet no one has been willing to fill that role, so if someone with more experience than me would like to climb in AZ, I would be more than happy to accept that offer.

Looks like people looking for partners in Prescott on this thread

mountainproject.com/v/is-th…

rgold wrote:One of the more surprising things to me about the pictured situation is that the team managed to pull that much rope through those inappropriate anchors. The chances that the rope couldn't be budged from the outset are high, and this leads to a question: was the difficulty of rappel pull tested before the rappeller came down? If not, it is a good idea to learn to do this. If so, then wouldn't someone below have noticed the ropes hadn't been moved to the correct rap anchors?

Ya, the rope pulled through with hardly any effort - much less force required than many correct setups I've done in the past that go over ledges. Thanks for the response.

Eric Engberg wrote: Ok - how about providing pointers to the answers rather then rewriting them every time?

You mean pointing out perhaps an article that addresses the issue?

Im not trying to give the answer or instruction to the OP, just trying to encourage the folks who are, to do it in a way that is constructive.

Z.St.Jules wrote: You mean pointing out perhaps an article that addresses the issue? Im not trying to give the answer or instruction to the OP, just trying to encourage the folks who are, to do it in a way that is constructive.

I'm all for constructive advice, but sometimes people need to be bluntly told they're doing ridiculous things and that nOObs should stop teaching nOObs. And this is not meant to pick on the OP, just an observation in general. I think posters should try to remain polite (sometimes I fail at this) but I also don't want a site that coddles people either. People should be called out when they post things that are just flat out wrong. There is a rampant culture on this and other sites of nOObs posting shit like know what they're talking about and often giving incorrect and even potentially dangerous advice. These are the instances where being constructive doesn't always work.