Voting on route gradings

It's not often I add my opinion on route's grade to the listing on MP. Guess I just don't feel qualified to do so. But how many of you do, and how much does the consensus and other people's ratings effect what the grade you choose? Do you put a grade rating on most or all the routes you climb, or just the ones where you would rate it differently than the original grade? Do you tend to grade up or down more, or is it a pretty even mix?

The Yellow Spur is an interesting one. It's a 5.9 that has a 5.9+ consensus, but the votes are from 5.9- to 5.10c with about half the votes in the 5.10 range. I know there are a few different starts, then there's the Robbin's Traverse or the Direct Finish which are probably cause for some of that range. The consensus rating thread just got me interested. Are there other classics out there with this much swing?

I grade some of the routes I climb, I feel consensus is the best way to accurately grade a route. I try not to be swayed by other ratings and rate it to how I feel it climbs. I am more inclined to rate a route if it climbs different than its rated.

I wish there was a way to create a poll, I've seen on other forums the ability to do so.

Yes, Yellow spur has an optional 5.10 final pitch. The original route climbs a different line, and this probably contributes to the wider ratings you see on MP for that route

Yes, it is really common on MP for routes to have wide interpretations of difficulty.

Ratings themselves are not consistent across the board, are inherently subjective, and especially variable depending on who's rating what, where:

eg: First ascensionists who want to appear bass ass and sandbag vs first ascensionists that need their ego stroked call their route harder than it really is. (applies to subsequent climbers as well)

Different areas have different standards: Eldo vs Clear Creek... pretty different rating standard not more than 20 miles apart.

Or trad vs sport: castle rock trad vs Dream Canyon sport in Boulder canyon.

Personal ability in the context of style of movement: face vs crack vs dihedrals, slabs etc

sustained vs short crux climbs

onsight vs knowing beta especially when success depends on a some kind of trick move

Then there are the Indian Creek cracks where twiggy and Hercules have two entirely different size ranges that suit them.

I have added ratings to some climbs, and adjusted from consensus up on some, down on others and the same for many.

Mathias, also just want to say I appreciate your restraint, and self knowledge that you are still inexperienced enough to not feel qualified on ratings yet. It doesn't help when someone who isn't experienced and solid at a given grade tries to rate climbs at that or higher grades. Same goes for offwidth specialists trying to rate sporto pocket pulls, or Sporto face climbers trying to rate offwidths.

mountainhick wrote:eg: First ascensionists who want to appear bass ass and sandbag vs first ascensionists that need their ego stroked call their route harder than it really is.

Huh?

I try to add my rating on any climb that I did successfully without hanging on gear. I think its one of the more valuable features of the site to be able to see the range of ratings, so I try to contribute to that value. I actually get ridiculously nerdy about this stuff and have made a spreadsheet where I rank all the climbs I've done by how hard I thought they were and then compare that ranking to the consensus ratings here on MP.

gription wrote: Huh?

Yeah. For many, there is a lot of emotional/ego based attachment to route ratings.

Overall though, seems most first ascensionists try to do a good job with initial ratings.

George Perkins wrote:I notice I seem to downrate a disproportionately higher % of easy/mid-range sport climbs, especially at more recently developed areas.

Ditto. Overall I believe there has been an erosion of rating standards over the decades. Things are tending to become softer for the grade over time, not harder.

mountainhick wrote:Mathias, also just want to say I appreciate your restraint, and self knowledge that you are still inexperienced enough to not feel qualified on ratings yet. It doesn't help when someone who isn't experienced and solid at a given grade tries to rate climbs at that or higher grades. Same goes for offwidth specialists trying to rate sporto pocket pulls, or Sporto face climbers trying to rate offwidths.

Thank you. I think I've only added grade ratings to bouldering problems, and not too many of those. The ones I can think of are all on the same piece or rock and the grades they had just didn't seem to fit quite right to me when comparing them. Otherwise I tend to leave ratings alone because I know I'm far more likely to grade up on something I struggle with, but accept a grade on something I can do easily.

I really did want to offer up a grade on Yellow Spur, but decided others know better than I do.

Mathias wrote:It's not often I add my opinion on route's grade to the listing on MP. Guess I just don't feel qualified to do so. But how many of you do, and how much does the consensus and other people's ratings effect what the grade you choose? Do you put a grade rating on most or all the routes you climb, or just the ones where you would rate it differently than the original grade? Do you tend to grade up or down more, or is it a pretty even mix? The Yellow Spur is an interesting one. It's a 5.9 that has a 5.9+ consensus, but the votes are from 5.9- to 5.10c with about half the votes in the 5.10 range. I know there are a few different starts, then there's the Robbin's Traverse or the Direct Finish which are probably cause for some of that range. The consensus rating thread just got me interested. Are there other classics out there with this much swing?

I try to put in a rating for each route I climb regardless of style, however I will generally just go with the original suggested grade if I haven't gotten the route cleanly, then I adjust my rating if I feel like it is different after having redpointed the route. I'd say that the majority of routes listed on MP seem to be about right in the rating department, but there are certainly routes that I think the MP rating is incorrect and I make sure to give them the rating that I feel is more correct.

I actually went to my profile and looked at what I'd rated. There were more than I thought. I cleaned it up some, but the ones I left, I feel are valid.

It's always been a hard call for me to make as to whether to add my opinion or not. On the one hand if it's at a grade close to my limit, I feel I can probably assess it better than someone who climbs far harder than I do, because when something is so easy for you, it's hard to put a number on how easy it is.

But on the other hand, it could be a style I'm not used to, or just be harder for really tall people, maybe I've missed some really obvious sequence and made the route harder for myself.

I am more likely to rate a route when my grade is different than the established consensus.

I generally won't rate a route unless I've done several routes in the area to get a feel for the style of climbing and grades in that area. And I don't rate things that require a style of climbing that I suck at.

I think overall I've likely uprated more things than I've downrated, but I've done my share of both. If there's any ego involved on my end, it's definitely subconscious.

When I add a route to the database I am most likely going to give it the most recent guidebook rating or the FA rating (if I know it). I haven't done any FAs myself.

You almost need 2 grades for routes (at least in NC). You have the peak climbing season rating and than add 1-2 grade levels to it for the summer time sweating rock grade!

I have seen it happen both ways had routes that I can walk up shut me down on a hot day and I have seen routes that we had to work to get on an average day turn into a easy walk in the park on a perfect weather day.

FAs are a harder case, and ratings that are off aren't just from ego. New routes often feel harder than they end up being since they are still cleaning up, and the best holds/sequences may not be obvious yet. If the route is put up on lead, fear and just the sheer effort of cleaning or bolting on lead also makes accurate rating very difficult. It may also be surprising to people how much context you get from seeing a rating in advance, and how hard it can be rate something accurately without that suggestion.

I've never felt very comfortable with ratings I suggest for my new routes, and i always feel torn between not wanting to overrate and look light duty or contribute to grade inflation, and not wanting to sandbag and get people in over their head or hurt. Some first ascenders are certainly ego driven and have odd ratings because of that, but I think most try and it is just a hard task.

I rate all the routes I do because I feel that even if my vote is the same as its already graded, my vote will have an affect later I someone else thinks it should he down or up graded. If I think a route is 5.12a and the consensus and original grade is 12a, I'll still vote simply to contribute to consensus grade in the future.

I sandbag every route my partner or wife can do and inflate the grade a little bit on my individual projects like everyone else, of course.

Paul Zander wrote:I try to add my rating on any climb that I did successfully without hanging on gear. I think its one of the more valuable features of the site to be able to see the range of ratings, so I try to contribute to that value. I actually get ridiculously nerdy about this stuff and have made a spreadsheet where I rank all the climbs I've done by how hard I thought they were and then compare that ranking to the consensus ratings here on MP.

This is actually a really interesting idea. In theory this is how the rating system should work, but it doesn't. I personally find a what feels like to me, a wide difference in ratings for all sorts of reasons - the biggest being the difference in areas and the rating system changing over the years. And I'm fine with that. But it would be interesting to try and to hash out how hard everything I've done on a more honest (personal) and hopefully more objective second scale. Sometimes it's nice to know how hard something really is, sometimes I want the adventure.