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Does the leader really need to bring jugs?

Original Post
JeffL · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 65

Thinking about just bringing one set of jugs and swapping them when we change blocks. Will be short fixing, I can think of at least one scenario where the leader would wish they had jugs. Short fixing a traversing pitch and fall into space. The easy fix seems to be to carry a tibloc and/or cord and prussik or make a 2 to 1 with the grigri.

Any other instances where the leader might get into trouble or expend a large amount of time due to not carrying jugs?

Aaron Hope · · San Luis Obispo · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 341

The leader needs jugs for space hauling

Aaron Hope · · San Luis Obispo · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 341

I should also add: if you fix any pitches, then both of you will need jugs.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

Hi, occasionally jugs can be useful for the leader, but not really needed unless you plan to fall off a lot.

I managed to rap a line the other day knowing I was going to have to jug back up. I forgot to take the jugs from the top belay. Had to prusik the old way the entire rope up an overhanging wall. It wasn't too bad really.

I'm guessing, but I assume many of the older routes on El Cap were done without jugs. Or have I got my history wrong?

JeffL · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 65

We will not be hauling, using speed tactics

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

I am not the most experienced of aid climbers, but I have done a couple routes with one set of jugs. IME, the leader only needs them if:

There is a significant chance of falling into space and they need to jug back up (could always improvise with a friction hitch to do this).

They need them to haul (have used a Grigri to haul).

There will be fixed lines and both will ascend (have lowered the ascenders back down to do this or ascended with a Grigri and one Basic too).

Account Delete · · Lafayette, LA · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 51

Yea if the leader falls and zippers a few pieces and is hanging too far under the roof to get back on the climb ascenders would be a great convenience to have.

Crotch Robbins · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2003 · Points: 277

If you aren't hauling, a gri-gri and a tibloc would suffice in the unlikely event that the leader falls into space and needs to ascend her rope.

Account Delete · · Lafayette, LA · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 51

Yes but if you are a man you can do it without a grigri

taipan jam · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 30
David Coley wrote:Hi, occasionally jugs can be useful for the leader, but not really needed unless you plan to fall off a lot. I managed to rap a line the other day knowing I was going to have to jug back up. I forgot to take the jugs from the top belay. Had to prusik the old way the entire rope up an overhanging wall. It wasn't too bad really. I'm guessing, but I assume many of the older routes on El Cap were done without jugs. Or have I got my history wrong?
I think Jumars were on pretty early for El Cap routes. Harding et al prussiked, but I'm pretty sure that by the time Robbins soloed the Muir he was doing it with Jumars system (sketchy, of course).

Pre-dating the yellow model was grey Jumars...I had the honor of borrowing TM Herberts for my first wall. Not sure if there was a different batch before grays, but TM's were smooth as silk, which was what I always liked about Jumar brand.

Of course, you get into icy or wet ropes, that's the last thing you want.

for the OP, no if you are doing push, the leader should not need it. Just don't do what I've done and take off leading with the only set...
JeffL · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 65
Jeremy Aslaksen wrote:I ALWAYS carry my jugs, belay device, GriGri & knife on me. ALWAYS.
I have heard this before, I'm wondering why? Can you give me specific examples of when you would be very happy to have them?
Shelton Hatfield · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 650
taipan jam wrote:Just don't do what I've done and take off leading with the only set...
This. The leader taking off with the jugs seems like the most likely scenario you'll encounter that will make you wish you'd each brought a pair.

That said, I only ever bring one pair for a party of two on "in a day" missions. Just be very attentive during changeovers and it shouldn't be an issue. And if you lead in blocks you probably won't have very many opportunities to forget to pass the jugs anyway. Just don't drop em'!

I'd rather deal with the risk of the possible yet unlikely scenario that the leader takes off with the jugs, than deal with the absolutely certain scenario that I have more "unnecessary" crap dangling from me while leading. But then again I often leave the second rope on the ground too. At the end of the day the best idea is to work within whatever margin you're most comfortable with.
David A · · Gardnerville, NV · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 405

Not a very experienced aid climber here, but personally I bring jugs every time I lead. "Cuz shit happens" was put very well by Jeremy. You just never know, especially if you are climbing funky aid with lots of trickery....

I once had to throw my tag line over a horn and then ascend it. Very glad I had my jugs then!

Shelton Hatfield · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 650
David A wrote:Not a very experienced aid climber here, but personally I bring jugs every time I lead. "Cuz shit happens" was put very well by Jeremy. You just never know, especially if you are climbing funky aid with lots of trickery.... I once had to throw my tag line over a horn and then ascend it. Very glad I had my jugs then!
I bring cord for prusiks, "Cuz shit happens". I learned that I can make a friction hitch with a sling, "Cuz shit happens". But I only bring jugs when I know I'll be ascending a rope, or have some other use for jugs.

People should obviously bring whatever makes them feel ready for their objective. When trying to employ "speed tactics", like the OP, I make a point to leave everything I don't NEED on the ground. But hey, everyone has different needs.
Drew Marshall · · Squamish, BC · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 627

Short answer - yes if you're hauling (or a tag line to bring them up), no if you're not.

Jumars are really heavy, and a prusik doesn't weigh anything for the off chance that you'll need it.

When I lead, I have Shelton Hatfield bring up the Jumars :)

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
aaron hope wrote:I should also add: if you fix any pitches, then both of you will need jugs.
I guess the truth might be closer to "is normal to have" rather than "need". One person can always jug using the hauling microtrax and a grigri (which I guess most people take). Maybe not the quickest way, but it works for one or two fixed ropes.
Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

I don't.

If we need to jug ropes we just slide them down the rope.

thomas.w · · Denver, CO · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 5
Mark Hudon wrote:I don't. If we need to jug ropes we just slide them down the rope.
+1
Peter Zabrok · · Hamilton, ON · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 645

I would never EVER be ANYWHERE on a big wall without the ability to move upwards or downwards on rope at ALL times!

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

So you've fallen and are dangling out in space. You have a haul line still clipped to your harness? Tag up the jugs from the second.

People do this all the time. They create unreal, unusual or rare situations and then worry about them happening and prepare for them.
You all know that I've done a lot of El Cap routes. I've done the trades, I've done the moderates and I'm working my way into the big boy routes. I've climbed more that 600 pitches on El Cap. You could probably assume that I've seen quite a few situations on El Cap.
In all of my experience, I'd say that falling and ending up in a position where had to ascend the rope (vs. swing over to it, lower down to it, or merely reach over and grab it, or had been too far from the anchor to tag up the jugs) MIGHT have occurred MAYBE ONCE. I actually can't think of a spot on a route that I've done where you might fall and need to ascend the rope and be too far from the anchor to tag up the jugs. (And don't forget, that unless you are fixing the pitch, you probably have the haul kit. The haul kit has to have at least some kind of rope grab in it.)

Okay, let's just imagine a 230 foot pitch. I am one foot from the anchor, I fall and am now dangling with no jugs.

OH NO! WHAT TO DO?

I tag up the jugs.
Of course the second has to let go of the end of the haul line, so now I have to jug back up to a place where I can grab the lead rope, clip into it, and rap back down to the anchor, pulling myself in as I go. Once at the lower anchor, the second now has the end of the haul line, I jug back up and drop the jugs down the haul line back to the second.
Yeah, that sucks, and it is a lot of work but don't forget the parameters of the problem, I've fallen into space and am so far away from the anchor that I can't tag up the jugs without the second letting go of the end of the haul line, in more than 600 El Cap pitches, I can't think a place where that would happen.

In the end, it's much ado about nothing. Tag up the jugs.

JeffL · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 65

Thanks Mark, I agree 100%. Do you carry your jugs on you when soloing at all times? This makes more sense than my original question. I was asking originally to ensure I wasn't missing anything major on my first NIAD run. We only brought 1 rope and my fear was if the leader fell with a PDL while on a traversing pitch

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Big Wall and Aid Climbing
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