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Is the Owen-Spalding dry?

Chris Massey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 5

Thanks all for the info. I think I am going to take a shot at it on Sunday. Weather looks great between now and then. Will be my first technical alpine route. Going up Upper Exum and down O/S. Going car to car in a day. Will let you know how it goes. Will be getting dropped off and will need to be picked up. Can anyone confirm cell coverage on the descent or at the trailhead/parking lot?

Luke Lindeman · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 0
Chris Massey wrote:Thanks all for the info. I think I am going to take a shot at it on Sunday. Weather looks great between now and then. Will be my first technical alpine route. Going up Upper Exum and down O/S. Going car to car in a day. Will let you know how it goes. Will be getting dropped off and will need to be picked up. Can anyone confirm cell coverage on the descent or at the trailhead/parking lot?
I know last time I was up there I was getting service on the approach. I wasn't on a climbing trip so I wasn't up at the saddle though - have heard that service is spotty but attainable.
Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039
Chris Massey wrote:Thanks all for the info. I think I am going to take a shot at it on Sunday. Weather looks great between now and then. Will be my first technical alpine route. Going up Upper Exum and down O/S. Going car to car in a day. Will let you know how it goes. Will be getting dropped off and will need to be picked up. Can anyone confirm cell coverage on the descent or at the trailhead/parking lot?
AT&T works fine up to somewhere around Garnet Canyon, then gets spotty. Might be able to get service at Lower Saddle. But at the trailhead, service is sufficient to text and sometimes place a call.
Bootz Ylectric · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 165

This is my first time going. We're debating between OS and Exum. Just kind of depends on conditions and how we're feeling I guess.

You guys are all saying skip the crampons. My partner was saying I should probably buy a pair for this based on the conditions lately. Would you guys agree with him that I should have them just in case and being that I'm a first timer, or should I ditch that expense to invest in another more packable jacket since it looks like it's going to be damn cold!

Any input is really appreciated.

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039
Boots Ylectric wrote:This is my first time going. We're debating between OS and Exum. Just kind of depends on conditions and how we're feeling I guess. You guys are all saying skip the crampons. My partner was saying I should probably buy a pair for this based on the conditions lately. Would you guys agree with him that I should have them just in case and being that I'm a first timer, or should I ditch that expense to invest in another more packable jacket since it looks like it's going to be damn cold! Any input is really appreciated.
There's a lot to unpack, so here goes...

Have you ever used crampons before? If you're about to buy a pair for this, I'm guessing you haven't. A point I'm taking away from this thread (and much of my alpine experience on anything either moderate or classic) is the under-appreciated notion that the alpine might not be the best place to learn to use crampons (or an ice axe, or a cam, or rappelling, etc.) for the first time. I don't mean this as a slight; I simply mean to say that if you're going to use crampons, you should get them sooner than later and practice using them before you get on the mountain. If you watched the video I posted, you can appreciate the difference in putting crampons on for the first time in sunny, warm, calm conditions versus the practiced art of getting them strapped to your feet while simultaneously having the skin ripped off your cheek by flying ice.

As for the OS or the Exum at this point in particular, the next question is when you plan to put the crampons on. The snow patches you'll be crossing are maybe 10 or 20 feet wide. Are you going to put the crampons on and take them off for just 20 feet? Are you going to repeat this the whole way up? How fast are you at putting the crampons on and taking them off? This could get annoying and slow very quickly.

Alternately, are you going to wear crampons the entire ascent? In which case, have you practiced walking and climbing on rock in crampons? Bear in mind that many ascents were made in the Alps prior to the advent of crampons by carving out flat steps in ice with an axe. Laborious, to be sure, but on a sufficiently large/flat step, the crampon wasn't necessary. In this case, those steps already exist from many previous parties.

There's also the matter of verglas, which may be the strongest argument for the crampons. If there's precipitation followed by an overnight freeze, it's possible all of the rock could be coated in an ever-so-thin layer of ice. In that case, it's often easier to climb in crampons than in boots/approach shoes. However, as it will be verglas and not truly sheets of ice, this will be very similar to climbing bare rock in crampons. Again, this needs to be practiced.

Depending on when you start and recent weather, verglas may not be an issue at all (it's not wet enough) or it might have all melted as the morning warms up. It depends a lot on timing. What time do you plan to get to the base of the OS/Exum?

That's a lot of rhetorical questions. I'm not trying to be a smart-ass. Those are the questions I'd be asking myself to help answer the question about crampons. You know yourself better than I do, but that's where I'd start my analysis.
Bootz Ylectric · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 165
Derek DeBruin wrote: There's a lot to unpack, so here goes... Have you ever used crampons before? If you're about to buy a pair for this, I'm guessing you haven't. A point I'm taking away from this thread (and much of my alpine experience on anything either moderate or classic) is the under-appreciated notion that the alpine might not be the best place to learn to use crampons (or an ice axe, or a cam, or rappelling, etc.) for the first time. I don't mean this as a slight; I simply mean to say that if you're going to use crampons, you should get them sooner than later and practice using them before you get on the mountain. If you watched the video I posted, you can appreciate the difference in putting crampons on for the first time in sunny, warm, calm conditions versus the practiced art of getting them strapped to your feet while simultaneously having the skin ripped off your cheek by flying ice. As for the OS or the Exum at this point in particular, the next question is when you plan to put the crampons on. The snow patches you'll be crossing are maybe 10 or 20 feet wide. Are you going to put the crampons on and take them off for just 20 feet? Are you going to repeat this the whole way up? How fast are you at putting the crampons on and taking them off? This could get annoying and slow very quickly. Alternately, are you going to wear crampons the entire ascent? In which case, have you practiced walking and climbing on rock in crampons? Bear in mind that many ascents were made in the Alps prior to the advent of crampons by carving out flat steps in ice with an axe. Laborious, to be sure, but on a sufficiently large/flat step, the crampon wasn't necessary. In this case, those steps already exist from many previous parties. There's also the matter of verglas, which may be the strongest argument for the crampons. If there's precipitation followed by an overnight freeze, it's possible all of the rock could be coated in an ever-so-thin layer of ice. In that case, it's often easier to climb in crampons than in boots/approach shoes. However, as it will be verglas and not truly sheets of ice, this will be very similar to climbing bare rock in crampons. Again, this needs to be practiced. Depending on when you start and recent weather, verglas may not be an issue at all (it's not wet enough) or it might have all melted as the morning warms up. It depends a lot on timing. What time do you plan to get to the base of the OS/Exum? That's a lot of rhetorical questions. I'm not trying to be a smart-ass. Those are the questions I'd be asking myself to help answer the question about crampons. You know yourself better than I do, but that's where I'd start my analysis.
I didn't find your response to be smart ass at all. In fact I have to say it was probably the best response I could have asked for and far superior to the MP standard of "Yer gonna die". I did watch the video, and it was quite sobering considering what I had expected to be encountering for conditions at this point in the season.

I have put on and used strap on style crampons this past winter along with tools for some pretty easy waterfall top roping. I didn't buy a pair at the time because I was injured most of the winter and didn't see myself getting really into ice climbing. I just used a friend's pair that I was with.

So based on the argument for using crampons it sounds like they could potentially be more of a hindrance to me than an aid quite possibly. As you pointed out the strongest reason for having the crampons would be verglas, but without having a better knowledge of using them they won't prove to be that much more useful anyway from the sounds of it.

Thanks a bunch for the input, I definitely have a couple things to consider.
Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039
Boots Ylectric wrote: I didn't find your response to be smart ass at all. In fact I have to say it was probably the best response I could have asked for and far superior to the MP standard of "Yer gonna die". I did watch the video, and it was quite sobering considering what I had expected to be encountering for conditions at this point in the season. I have put on and used strap on style crampons this past winter along with tools for some pretty easy waterfall top roping. I didn't buy a pair at the time because I was injured most of the winter and didn't see myself getting really into ice climbing. I just used a friend's pair that I was with. So based on the argument for using crampons it sounds like they could potentially be more of a hindrance to me than an aid quite possibly. As you pointed out the strongest reason for having the crampons would be verglas, but without having a better knowledge of using them they won't prove to be that much more useful anyway from the sounds of it. Thanks a bunch for the input, I definitely have a couple things to consider.
Glad to hear it. One final point that bears mentioning is that the choice to take crampons or not is ultimately a pro/con analysis.

Pro:
-crampons could increase security on icy/verglas terrain
-crampons might be mandatory for ascent/descent

Con:
-crampons can be fairly heavy
-crampons cost money
-crampons might not be utilized at all

In other words, if the weight won't slow you down, they might be worth the peace of mind anyway. But if you need to bring boots to go with your crampons, that can get pretty heavy. And if you then need to bring climbing shoes to wear for the harder climbing because you're not comfortable climbing in the boots, that gets heavier still. That's ultimately what you need to decide. Is it worth the peace of mind relative to the weight? What are the odds you'll actually use them? The process is the same regardless of the outcome for the decision.

And if you wanna practice using crampons on rock, the pile of rock sometimes used under highway overpasses is a decent approximation for talus and can get you used to walking in them.
Bootz Ylectric · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 165
Derek DeBruin wrote: Glad to hear it. One final point that bears mentioning is that the choice to take crampons or not is ultimately a pro/con analysis. Pro: -crampons could increase security on icy/verglas terrain -crampons might be mandatory for ascent/descent Con: -crampons can be fairly heavy -crampons cost money -crampons might not be utilized at all In other words, if the weight won't slow you down, they might be worth the peace of mind anyway. But if you need to bring boots to go with your crampons, that can get pretty heavy. And if you then need to bring climbing shoes to wear for the harder climbing because you're not comfortable climbing in the boots, that gets heavier still. That's ultimately what you need to decide. Is it worth the peace of mind relative to the weight? What are the odds you'll actually use them? The process is the same regardless of the outcome for the decision. And if you wanna practice using crampons on rock, the pile of rock sometimes used under highway overpasses is a decent approximation for talus and can get you used to walking in them.
Thanks again for all the info Derek. Super helpful. I decided to just go ahead and order a pair. I found a great deal on some Salewa Alpinist crampons. I figure it's better to have them and not need them than need them and not have them. I want to get more into alpine climbing in the future so it's probably a worthwhile investment. They'll get here by next weekend so I can hit my crag and play around in the talus field with them. Devils Lake has an "Alpine route" that I'm going to do some final practice laps on next weekend, so it will be great practice.
Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039

That sounds rad! Hope you have a great time on the Grand.

Joe Crane · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 45

Conditions on Friday, July 31st:

The belly crawl pitch on OS is mostly snow and ice free. There is a bit of icy snow right at the base of the double chimney (right chimney)

The double chimney has ice in in both chimneys although there is reportedly less ice in the right chimney. You have the choice of easier moves and more ice or a committing move and less ice.

The base of the Owen Chimney is pretty snowy/icy but the steps have been worn in enough that it's not really a problem.

Owen Chimney has ice in it, but some soloing climbers were undeterred. It was a bit of a bottle neck so I bypassed the chimney via the catwalk.

The catwalk was mostly dry and I managed to reach the base of Sargent's chimney well before the soloists.

There is some snow at the base of this chimney and apparently it's icy up high, but my partner and I opted not to rope up here and found it dry enough up to where you cut left onto easier terrain.

In summary, there is still plenty of snow and ice up there from the recent storm, but it is avoidable.

Double J · · Sandy, UT · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 3,931

Anyone know what the North East side of the Enclosure looks like? Specifically the High Route or Emotional Rescue? My gut says the High Route is a ice/wet mess right now, but what about ER?

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039

Was on the North Ridge of the Grand Saturday (8/1/15). Don't remember specifically which lines are which over on the Enclosure, but there was still plenty of snow and ice smeared in basically every gully, couloir, dihedral, and nook over there.

Double J · · Sandy, UT · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 3,931

Thanks Derek, What I kinda assumed.

Hans El Grandote · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 0

Derek, I would appreciate it if you could answer two questions: One, did you opt for the chimneys or the Italian Cracks variation? Two, did you use crampons?

I am still weighing a possible Grand Traverse attempt beginning this Thursday, in hopes that the consistent high pressure will have melted much of the snow and ice by then. I can handle the odd bit of ice, but my group is not looking to jump on the route if it requires crampons and ice tools, or if most opportunities for pro are clogged with ice.

Your input is much appreciated. Thanks!

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039

Hi Hansen, to answer your questions:
1) We climbed the Italian Cracks.
2) We did not bring crampons.

We did the North Ridge as part of a Cathedral Traverse, and while on the high-traffic areas snow was not an issue, things were a bit tricky at the Koven Col. The snow there was still quite hard as we got there early and the consequences were severe. We did a little sideways rappelling to bypass it.

The north ridge proper was still pretty icy. With crampons and an axe, though, it looked like it could be a fun/interesting mixed climb on mostly rock. We did not encounter any cracks so severely iced that protection was a problem.

As for a Thursday attempt, I'm not too optimistic based on the forecast. I'm not in Jackson right now, but it looks like there will be a fresh plastering of snow and some new verglas for a little while I imagine. It looks like the best weather windows are Friday or maybe Monday or later. I'd be surprised if things were melted out well on Thursday. But I don't know how fast you move, your suffer tolerance, or your skills.

You bringing a crew from 'bama on this mission?

Grand Teton NOAA meteorogram 8/3/2015.

mountain-forecast.com for Grand Teton summit 8/3/2015.

Hans El Grandote · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 0

Derek, thanks for the great beta! Looks like we will be making a last-minute call on the Grand/Cathedral Traverse. I'm there until Tuesday, so have a bit of a window. I will be up on another route tomorrow and/or Friday, and will post conditions when possible. And your once-home state will shortly be well represented in Jackson County....roll tide!

Luke Lindeman · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 0

Anyone have any conditions updates or have any predictions of what the weather may be like on September 1st-3rd? Based on previous seasons or general Jackson weather trends?

Double J · · Sandy, UT · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 3,931

Saturday the 8th was a large all day storm-rain low-snow/ice up high.

OS Update-The same. Still full of snow and ice above the upper saddle. I had crampons and a tool with me. Not 100% necessary, but to each their own.

North Ridge-Overall faces dry, cracks wet but easy to climb around the water. Snow on the ledge after the 2ed pitch but easy to climb around.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Wyoming, Montana, Dakotas
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