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The Devils Lake top rope cluster Fu&k thread...

Double J · · Sandy, UT · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 3,931

so, how was your trip Mike?

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Rick Blair wrote:I see, it's your position that there should be no more resource extraction on federal lands? So 80% of Nevada should be off limits? That's pretty extreme.
Ummmm...what?
nathanael · · Riverside, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 525
Leoj wrote: Do you trust a single carabiner on your belay loop more than a single carabiner at the masterpoint? Do you use a single rope?
I use two lockers for redundancy on my master point and not on my belay loop. One I can visually inspect every 30 seconds, the other is out of sight for long periods of time. Completely different situations.
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Leoj wrote: I should have clarified this bit.... Although it does add redundancy to the system, this is not the MOST important reason for having two biners.... the most important reason for two biners is to extend the useful life of a rope, followed closely by adding redundancy to the system.... no matter what we do there will always be a single point of failure in a system at the belay locker. Do you trust a single carabiner on your belay loop more than a single carabiner at the masterpoint? Do you use a single rope?.... Just wanted to clear up a COMMON MISBELIEF that the two biners are there primarily to add redundancy to the system.
This is a complete load of crap.

Screw the wear on my rope..they ARE primarily there for redundancy. Even if you had one large biner with the surface area of two normal biners, I would insist on two. A top rope master point is unattended. If your single carabiner becomes unlocked there is nobody there attending it and you are now TRing on one non-locked carabiner. The single biner at your belay can and should be checked by the belayer to ensure it remains locked. One of my favorite quotes, "If you have never seen a locking carabiner come unlocked, you have either not been climbing long enough or you have not been paying attention".
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Leoj wrote: .... or you have been using 3-stage lockers the whole time ;) Are you inspecting your rope and belay loop every 30 seconds too? Redundancy is not the end-all be-all when it comes to a safe system - just sayin'.
Three stage lockers can be kept from locking too. I don't know about you, but my rope and belay loop don't come unlocked. If they did, I'd double them up too.

I don't leave any completely essential point to a single unattended carabiner if I can help it. That means essential pro, fixing lines to rap or jug, attaching haul bags, or a TR. And it has absolutely nothing to do with wear on my rope.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

Brah, my TR is way better than your TR. Face it.

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
T Roper wrote:Brah, my TR is way better than your TR. Face it.
Ha!
James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Leoj wrote: Are you inspecting your rope and belay loop every 30 seconds too? Redundancy is not the end-all be-all when it comes to a safe system - just sayin'.
Take a close look at your belay loop and you will probably see that it is actually redundant in and of itself. Most modern belay loops are made from a doubled layer of material.

Also aside from the inspection/unlocking scenarios, there is also a force issue. The master point of a TR anchor holds twice the force of the belay locker. EDIT TO ADD: That's theoretically, in real world applications it's probably higher than that.

Leoj, this might be something you should re-examine given the feedback you're getting here from a number of experienced folks.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

If using two carabiners was just for wear and tear, why does everybody insist on placing them opposite and opposed? Redundancy is absolutely the end-all be all for a climbing system. Obviously, there's the rest of the acronym, but the bottom line is that things happen, whether due to freaks of nature or user error. I remember one time accidentally leaving the two belay biners unlocked during a TR setup. If I had been using only 1, that could have been catastrophically dangerous, yet because they were opposite and opposed (and redundant), we were safe.

Travis Kaney · · Green Bay, WI · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 420

Come on people! It's the weekend! Get out there and snap some photos of some sketchy/confusing/unnecessarily elaborate anchor systems!

Burton Lindquist · · Madison, WI · Joined Jan 2002 · Points: 4,215
Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,668

Bomber! You kids have it so easy, nowadays! When I was young, we had to anchor from leaves, we would have given anything for a solid twig!

Rich B · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 10

The tomfoolery is amusing, but wouldn't it be constructive to post examples of decent top rope setups, too?

I've found a lot of info online on how to build anchors for multi-pitch climbs, with high up masterpoints and all, but not a lot on how to set top rope anchors in a setting like Devil's Lake. Granted most of us have learned how to set anchors from mentors, and through experience, but some people here don't know and are willing to learn.

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166

Last Saturday saw yet another Brinton's Crack TR setup with static line running back to a tree across the trail. Despite comments from multiple bystanders (myself included), the situation was not rectified. The excuse was, "I forgot my cams." Which is really irrelevant, since there are plenty of giant blocks to tie off to instead.

The question I have, is what do we, as a community, do about this? Several people talked to the offender, and nothing came of it but excuses. The thing is, there is no excuse, it's wrong and completely unnecessary.

e-m-p · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 25

Well, there's Jon's suggestion...

Sounds like you did what you could. And it's entirely possible that while the offender wasn't willing to re-rig their anchor in response to your request, they may remember the conversation next time they set up their anchor and decide that tying off one of the giant blocks is easier than having another such discussion.

As any parent can tell you, changing behavior is generally a long process involving repeated corrections.

alpinejason · · Minneapolis · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 176
James M Schroeder wrote:it's wrong and completely unnecessary.
James, this is 1000% true but that line needs to come down via Jon's method or Doug's more sensible approach of re-rigging it for them or letting them borrow some gear if they forgot it.

Hikers have the right away along that trail.

Long term, I don't know what the solution is. Maybe we need to start hosting free clinics to educate climbers about some basic anchoring basics and climbing etiquette.
joeker · · Madison · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 5

Please fellow climbers, there are plenty of cracks and rocks for placing pro. Placing webbing across trails is not safe for the hikers or the anchor. All you have to do is ask another climber if you don't know how to create a safe TR setup.

Webbing running across the East Bluff trail.

Wes W · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 380
Scout leaders demonstrating proper rope management in the CCC parking lot.
Scout leaders demonstrating proper rope management in the CCC parking lot.
JoeLars41 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 60
Wes W wrote: Scout leaders demonstrating proper rope management in the CCC parking lot.
Yikes. Is that static?
Mike Robinson · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 251
Wes W wrote: Scout leaders demonstrating proper rope management in the CCC parking lot.
Looks like one of Egghead's belays ;)

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