Rappel accident in the Gunks on 7/25

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Alex Ch wrote:Wear seat belts. Tie knots on your ropes. Learn the rules then "break them" when you know when and why to break them. Best wishes to the woman who was injured.

Extremely well said Alex.

Adding my very best wishes to the injured climber for a very speedy and complete recovery.

LOL, speaking the truth is verboten...!

Alexey Dynkin wrote:First of all, speedy recovery for the victim - glad it didn't turn out worse! Second: here's a question. Has anyone actually been in a situation, or know someone who has, where a knot in the end of the rope has prevented you from rapping off the ends? I'm just curious, because I personally haven't and haven't heard of this ever happening.

Yes, we were rapping off ancient art but a party below us set up the rappel. The person thought he was tying 2 60m ropes together but one of them had been cut so the rope did not reach the ground. With hard work my partner and I made it off rappel safely but I think the moral of this story is don't rap on another party's rope. Just say thank you but no thanks or be prepared to think on your feet (or hanging in midair).

Really the problem has nothing to do with tying knots at the end of your rap line. This is a reminder that climbing is dangerous and many people take that for granite. Make sure you practice rope skills and understand systems. Know self-rescue and alway double check.

I tie knots in my rope majority of the time but if I can see the rope on the ground then I don't. If you are taking the proper precautions then you are less likely to get into an accident but climbing is dangerous so you could still get hurt.

Be safe and study hard!!

An aspect of the issues Julie raises, I think, is that we've lost too much fear. In the face of the inevitable human fallibility, fear is a useful protection. But after you've done hundreds or thousands of rappels, they become commonplace. We look at the scenery, we chat with other climbers, we think about the next climb or where we are going for dinner. We don't look at the rope ends or where they have landed because it this hasn't mattered for any of those hundreds or thousands of rappels we've already done.

We have books on how to keep fear from interfering with your climbing achievements. Maybe we need a book on how to continue to be afraid after nothing has happened over and over again, because rappelling is especially dangerous. Do one small thing wrong and you are going to be in a world of trouble, if not dead. It only takes a moment, and it doesn't matter how many thousand times you've done everything right.

Tie knots if it makes sense to do so, add an autoblock backup, double-check everything, but don't let those things interfere with the fear. Eons of evolution gave us fear as something to counter human fallibility. As you start down the first, fifth, tenth, or twentieth rap of the day, be very afraid.

It was a young woman (20's?) from NJ, who was climbing with a guy of similar age (boyfriend?). Not anyone I know. They had climbed to the midpoint belay/rap station and were coming down. I was teaching a new climber friend how to clean stuck nuts in one of those nice teaching cracks under Doug's Roof left of Horseman when the young lady hit the ground 15-20 feet away. She landed nearly flat on her back and had no leg/foot injuries. My friend has been on ski patrol for 25 years and ran to her aid. My WFA skills are rusty, so I just held her head still. The fallen climber was screaming in pain about her lower back and complained initially of numbness in her legs but was able to wiggle her toes well later on. She also complained of severe pain in her right elbow and arm, which a ranger splinted. I could see her belay device and backup prussic attached to her harness with only one strand of the rope remaining threaded through each. The whole rope came down with her and left the partner marooned at the 1st belay on Horseman. Another friend of mine, who is a very strong climber, went up to retrieve the partner and brought him down.

My friend and I were only 15-20 feet away but we were busy with our own activity and not watching the usual buzz of activity at the Uberfall. Horseman was to my right and my friend to my left, so I was looking away and didn't see the single strand of rope hanging down. The climber never lost conciousness and remembered seeing the cobwebs under a small (6") overhang before she was airborne, so we had a good idea of how far she fell, something around 10-15 feet. I didn't look at the rope much, but I don't think it was a bipattern, and I didn't look to see if it had a middle mark.

No new failure mechanisms here. The usual wisdom applies - knot your ropes. It doesn't hurt to make a habit of glancing down frequently to make sure you have a clean runway and enough rope to get you where you are going.

I heard today she spent 8 hours in surgery getting rods installed in one or more compressed vertebra. No further detail and no word on her elbow. I'm sure she can use all the prayers, good wishes and healing vibes you can send her way.

Stay safe out there, folks.

Alexey Dynkin wrote:Has anyone actually been in a situation, or know someone who has, where a knot in the end of the rope has prevented you from rapping off the ends?

This is probably not exactly what you are asking about, but I have hit the knot in one strand long before getting to the end of the other strand. Having the knot there makes it possible to get to the ends of both strands without having to have gotten the middle exactly lined up before getting started. When you hit the knot, you just keep rapping, but only the other strand passes through your belay device, and the rope eventually centers itself at the anchor.

Alexey Dynkin wrote: Yes, it's happened to you, or you know someone? Any details?

This happened to my partner while we were descending a climb out in Vegas in the dark.

We'd actually decided that morning that we were going to be a little more cautious and so brought walkie talkies, tied knots in the ends, and backed up the raps with a prussik. All three mechanisms came in rather handy when he missed the bolted rap anchor and kept on going...suddenly felt the knots and decided that might be a good time to stop. After explaining via walkie talkie (down over a bulge 200 feet below me on a windy night) WTF was going on, he built a hanging belay and let the ropes through his device. I rapped, rather carefully, watching like a hawk for the bolts. I pulled and re-rigged the next rap, and then if I recall I had to rap down and swing over a bit so he could clip the ropes, then I finished rapping and he came on down.

Saw my first and only ringtail that night, huge eyes like flashlights looking up at our headlamps as we reached the ground!

Speedy recovery to the climber.

i used to be adamant about tying knots in the ends of ropes when rappelling as a climber. then i started canyoneering last year and did many canyons. canyoneers rarely tie knots in the ends of our ropes. it was a hard to get used to but i have become a much better and competent rappeller and i don't worry about knots in ends of the ropes any more. being aware of the end of your rope regardless of if there is a knot in it is key as is the ability to know how to tie off while on rappel and self rescue. if you know those two skills and aware of the ends of your rope, it won't matter whether you have knots in the end of your rope or not.

Deimos wrote: This is probably not exactly what you are asking about, but I have hit the knot in one strand long before getting to the end of the other strand. Having the knot there makes it possible to get to the ends of both strands without having to have gotten the middle exactly lined up before getting started. When you hit the knot, you just keep rapping, but only the other strand passes through your belay device, and the rope eventually centers itself at the anchor.

I have done that, too. Also useful when the rappel ends a bit above the ground. Untie one knot, let the other end slide through, and down climb. Then you don't have to hold on to or pull the rope until you are on solid ground. If this is the situation you're in, lowering the first climber is probably a good idea.

I don't quite understand the discussion about rappel backups and rapping off the end of the rope... not quite the intended purpose, I think. Use backups to stop you if your brake hand comes off the rope, and knots to prevent rapping off the ends of the rope.

Also, it's not always possible, but a quick buddy check before rapping is a good idea.

Nice discussion.

Best wishes to the injured climber.

Benjamin Chapman wrote:"If you don't want to think...go sport climbing or bouldering".....Stagg54 Really? I've been trad climbing since before sport climbing came about and that's an arrogant small minded comment. How about you go back and crawl under your rock??

You must have zero sense of humor...

Stagg54 wrote: You must have zero sense of humor...

I thought it was funny, and astute. Unless you're doing highballs, you're almost always at less risk for injury or death while bouldering. Unless maybe you're allergic to stinging insects?

Anyway, best of luck to the recovering climber.

To put it simply if you dont put knots in then you should be VERY aware of the ends

Either see em both clearly on the ground or rappel down slowly looking downwards at the rope

Also keep both hands below the device if you FEED the device rather than just let it slide through you have more control

And when in doubt tie knots and find the middle the old fashioned way ... Especially on unknown ropes

Being able to tie off a belay device mid rap, reascend the rope, etc ... Are all very important skills i ur knot gets stuck or if u find out yr rope aint long enuff

Sadly i dont see many folks practicing it these days

bearbreeder wrote:Also keep both hands below the device if you FEED the device rather than just let it slide through you have more control.

Not only more control, but you are much more likely to notice the approach of a short end!

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It is worth remembering that the catastrophe that results when a rappeller goes off a short end depends on the rappel rope running through the anchor. When this happens, not only does the rappeller fall, but they take the rope with them, stranding the rest of the party at the anchor with no rope.

If the rope can't slide through the anchor, then chances are the rappeller will be able to recover, since rather than falling, they "only" shift to a single-strand rappel.

The ropes can be prevented from running by having the second person attach their device to the rappel ropes before the first person starts down. Various knots are also possible; the canyoneering folks sometimes use the Stone Knot to make the two rappel strands independent---see canyoneeringusa.com/techtip….

The advantage of the Stone Knot for this application is that the carabiner can be removed and then the first person down can test how well the rappel pulls. The downside is that if the last person forgets to remove the carabiner, the rappel won't pull.

With an installed device preventing rope motion, the rap pull can only be tested if the the device is removed. It seems likely that, most of the time, that won't happen and the difficulty of retrieving the rappel will go untested.

Fastening the rope at the anchor is overkill if there are knots in the ends. But in situations in which the party deems the knots risky for reasons mentioned earlier in the thread, some method of fastening the ropes at the anchor will give the first person down a fighting chance of recovering from uneven ends.

bearbreeder wrote:To put it simply if you dont put knots in then you should be VERY aware of the ends

I think you should always be very aware of the ends, regardless of whether there are knots or not.

bearbreeder wrote:To put it simply if you dont put knots in then you should be VERY aware of the ends

I think you should always be very aware of the ends, regardless of whether there are knots or not.

bearbreeder wrote:To put it simply if you dont put knots in then you should be VERY aware of the ends

I think you should always be very aware of the ends, regardless of whether there are knots or not.

Em Cos wrote: That's for tying two ropes together to rap, when pulling one rope the EDK is a flat knot that is less likely to snag. Wouldn't help for tying two ends together, as you're not pulling the two ropes apart (as you are when pulling down on one strand to pull ropes after a rap) to expose the flat side of the EDK to the rock - if that makes sense. I have to agree that tying knots in the ends is situational, and I think it is better to teach climbers the pros and cons of each technique and how to assess a situation and choose the best technique for it, rather than making rigid "always do this" rules without explaining why. When accidents like this happen, it is common to hear "if they had tied knots in the ends of the rope, this accident wouldn't have happened". That might be true. It might also be true that the accident would have been prevented if: they had taken care to set up the rappel with the rope in the middle, they had confirmed with bystanders on the ground that the rope ends were both down, they had rapped slowly and carefully while keeping an eye on the rope below them, they had tied into both ends, they had lowered the first climber who then confirmed both ends were down for the second... There are lots of ways to prevent such an accident and many of them don't result in a climber dangling 10' above the ground with a knot jammed in their belay device, who may or may not know how to get themselves out of that situation. I think when we ask new climbers to simply memorize a list of rigid dos and don'ts, instead of teaching them many options and to think through each situation, we sometimes end up with new climbers getting themselves in a pickle by stubbornly insisting on a technique that may not be right for their current situation, proclaiming "but my sister/boyfriend/mentor/REI class said I have to ALWAYS do it this way!" Just my $.02. I do agree that tying knots in the ends can be a quick and easy precaution that causes problems (probably) about as rarely as it saves lives, and it's a good technique to know.

I completely agree. That was the point of my original post.

Another hilarious example of this fixed mindset problem is the following (true story).

I had a friend who learned to sport climb. She knew how to build an anchor off 2 bolts. I sent her up this easy pitch (it was at Stone mt - bolted but not exactly sport climbing - rather run out and it is multipitch.) Told her there was a bolt anchor at the top. Reviewed exactly how to set it up and bring me up. All was good. She disappears and eventually the rope stops and I assume she's at the anchors. I wait for at least 45 minutes. Nothing. A friend of mine climbs by on an adjacent route. I ask him to check on her. Here is what he finds: She had somehow missed the 2 bolt anchor (which can actually be easy to do at Stone Mt, since it is so run out). Eventually she ended up on a ledge with a huge tree. She didn't know what to do, so my friend found her sitting there crying about how she couldn't find the anchor while sitting next to a gigantic tree. Now this lady was not simply a gym climber, she learned to toprope outdoors first, so she knew how to set up anchors off of a tree. She simply was just so fixed on looking for 2 bolts.

I always advise beginners to stay away from anyone who is dogmatic about "You must always do this and anyone who doesn't is wrong". Very rarely does that hold true in climbing. Belaying is the only thing that I can think of off the top of my head. But even then "the break hand must never come off" is very true if you are belaying with an ATC off your harness, but people who have been taught that really freak out when they get to the top of a pitch and you are belaying them with your reverso and take both hands off to take a picture.

Thinking always trumps mantra...

thinking always trumps mantra but the fact stands: I doubt the number of lives saved by not tying knots is anywhere close to the number of lives saved by tying knots. Yes it's very important to learn how to be analytical with every decision to make climbing, but I'd prefer my auto-pilot-end-of-day-beat-to-shit-mind tie a knot every time rather than assuming that I'll always be on top of my game. Enough good, competent, safe and smart climbers die from not tying a knot every year. Yes teaching new climbers to always evaluate their surroundings and make educated choices based on circumstances is a great lesson. Another important lesson is "tie a knot every time, unless there is a VERY VERY good reason not to." Getting stuck on a wall because of a knot stuck in a slot or ending up stranded (even overnight) because of tying a knot would suck and take a lot of work to fix. Going off the end of your rope because you didn't tie a knot means you're dead.

Stagg54 wrote: I think you should always be very aware of the ends, regardless of whether there are knots or not.

There are times when you can just zip down quickly ... In fact sometimes you need to to avoid the incoming weather

If yr partner is down at the ground or next anchor having just rapped down ... And hes giving a firemans ... Just zip right down