What have we done... or why the Peaks weren't posted

I think somebody ought to do a better job posting The Peaks, personally. There seem to be routes posted several times under different names, and definitely not all of them are there.

Now that access concerns seem to be ironed out, it would seem the time to start setting new precedents in the area. I too camped out on FS land that had been abused in the area (most AZ camping is free and treated cheaply), and the problems cited are not new to this crag or others.

Hiding in secrecy seems like an ineffective policy for change of any sort. None of us are inherently better than anybody else, especially on land that we all own and are all the stewards.

Apart from environmental impact, let me suggest why unpublished crags in national forest land may have some utility, from a criminal law/access perspective:

1. The bootleg trails to them are usually illegal (in Sedona people were prosecuted for mountain bike trails);

2. The “Bosched in routes” in wilderness are illegal (people have been prosecuted);

3. In Tucson the forest service took the position that any fixed anchors were illegal (a person was prosecuted);

4. Publishing developers names may provide a confession of sorts; and,

5. "Out of sight, out of mind" is frequently the mind set of administrators.

Scott Mc

Leftwich wrote:Mountain Project has...need to recognize that they have a responsibility...in sensitive areas.

The people that post the info bare the full weight not MP. This is why every "secret" guide that has my name in it has a note that says. "Do not post to MP or Supertopo"

It's a secret guide, braj

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2565951&tn=0&mr=0

gription wrote: The people that post the info bare the full weight not MP.

Except for that part where people keep saying that the problem predates the publication... Yeah.
So in other words, No.

Tamara, are you sure that

Scott M. McNamara wrote: 2. The “Bosched in routes” in wilderness are illegal (people have been prosecuted);

didn't have a lot to do with why the area wasn't allowed to be published on MP in 2011?
Powerdrill it and they will come.

s.price wrote:I can't see MP at fault for this poor behavior at all. The site did not create the post announcing the area to the masses. Let's say you have a ripping metal band with a show coming up at a local venue. So you run all over town asking to post on bulletin boards announcing your show. Maybe only one coffee shop allows you to post your flyer. Then a bunch of dickheads show up to rock and a huge fight breaks out. Maybe someone even gets shot. The club gets destroyed. Is the coffee shop that allowed your flyer responsible for that? NO. The dickheads are. Is the band responsible? NO. The dickheads are. Is JJ responsible for the trashing of the peaks because he posted it? NO. The dickheads are. MP is just a fancy bulletin board. While it's a shame this type of behavior has occurred pointing the finger at MP is just wrong.

As someone said mp is the scapegoat.

All kidding aside: I've just started posting routes/etc with "Locals only braj" or make the description on how to get there a little vague. That way only locals will show up, or if others try to, they usually get lost in the manzanita and poison oak and a snake or something bites them and then everyone wins.

Educate new climbers. Gym to crag education is really important. Be nice to new climbers, invite them out, explain to them how to act in the woods. I think Vertical upper body training sites (plastic climbing gyms) need to step up and do a whole lot more. How about a page on the waiver that says "you don't know shit, this gym teaches you nothing about going outside to climb so read up and learn how to climb. Go online and learn how to be a responsible outdoor person.

I too am part of the problem. In SQ II I said if you bolt routes down to the lowest common denominator the lowest common denominator will go climbing. I do this all the time now. I bolt them so a beginner is less likely to even break a nail. This makes outdoor climbing possible for a lot more folks. I have tried in SQ III to have a lot more gym to crag tips.

If you don't want crowds, leave the routes that need a few pieces of gear trad routes. You will almost never find people on these routes. Border Patrol a once busy 5.10 on Mt. Lemmon needs a couple of pieces down low, no one ever does it now.

This problem can be fixed and I think the Access Fund is working hard to do it. Check out their site.

Tony B wrote: Except for that part where people keep saying that the problem predates the publication..

Still MP is off the hook. You're splitting hairs.

gription wrote: Still MP is off the hook. You're splitting hairs.

Huh? You should read what I wrote.
My whole point is that the problem has 0 to do with the publication here.
There was no hair-splitting about it, and no fight with me to look for.

Several people have stated that they were there prior to publication and the problem already existed.

The problem of course is overpopulation. Compare Arizona's population growth since 1980 with other surrounding states, it's out of control, gross, and weird.

One age old answer to this problem is more sandbagging, run out bolts, bees, and snakes.

It's won't matter much in the long run though, just look at the water situation.

Tony B wrote: Huh? You should read what I wrote. My whole point is that the problem has 0 to do with the publication here. There was no hair-splitting about it, and no fight with me to look for. Several people have stated that they were there prior to publication and the problem already existed.

Yup

Many folks dont know how to properly go poopies in the woods. Add about a dozen dogs running up and down the crag base. Dogs love to play with shit and that means digging it up too. I have seen this at too many crags around the western US.

One reason the Hobo Jungle was created and shared was directly related to the Peaks secrecy. Being its dirty cousin, was kind of a bait and switch to spread out the crowds. Worked for a little while until it wasn't the new thing anymore. But really, the "take it off MP" stance doesnt make sense to me; what makes it more special than any other crag on there to be taken down?

Tony B wrote: Huh? You should read what I wrote. My whole point is that the problem has 0 to do with the publication here. There was no hair-splitting about it, and no fight with me to look for. Several people have stated that they were there prior to publication and the problem already existed.

I did read it and it would seem we agree. That wasn't clear to me based on your previous post.

Sadly enough there are quite a few people that are under the impression that their poop and TP magically vanish at the first sign of rain. And then the rest that don't care, or can't see broadly enough to realize it's a compounding problem.

the peaks have gotten a lot more crowded since the MP posting.... have been climbing there for years... no guide... just see a route n give it a try... make your own guide. Was relatively quiet... had lots of days up there with no one.. or just a few. Sure some days the local kids were out ... still was ... was...was.. a lot more serene and less drama. Since the posting.. it is...is...is a lot more crowded.. and all that comes with it.... think Jack canyon ish.... Don't matter to post whats ethics... whats environmentally conscious...how to park.. how to shit... cant fix apathy ... or punk asses... Now I hear sporties in the gym in Scottsdale.."hey dude have you seen the peaks online.. dude I went up.. a long approach but worth it " lol
So it is... is... is.. an will continue to degrade.... IMHO

cheers..lou

Scott McMahon wrote:Sadly enough there are quite a few people that are under the impression that their poop and TP magically vanish at the first sign of rain.

Or banana peels, orange peels, pistachio shells...

Mark E Dixon wrote: Or banana peels, orange peels, pistachio shells...

haha right! There is a posse of peel eating animals lurking around every corner to gobble up these tasty treats.

lou wrote:the peaks have gotten a lot more crowded since the MP posting.... have been climbing there for years... no guide... just see a route n give it a try... make your own guide. Was relatively quiet... had lots of days up there with no one.. or just a few. Sure some days the local kids were out ... still was ... was...was.. a lot more serene and less drama. Since the posting.. it is...is...is a lot more crowded.. and all that comes with it.... think Jack canyon ish.... Don't matter to post whats ethics... whats environmentally conscious...how to park.. how to shit... cant fix apathy ... or punk asses... Now I hear sporties in the gym in Scottsdale.."hey dude have you seen the peaks online.. dude I went up.. a long approach but worth it " lol So it is... is... is.. an will continue to degrade.... IMHO cheers..lou

Is... is... is this the way you write? Or are... are... are you experiencing a TIA?

Outside that target shooting I saw there one morning, Jack's Canyon is actually managed very well. Good pit toilets, fun climbing, friendly people. Yeah, that'd be terrible if The Peaks were managed that way.

I always sensed there was a big open season on running Jacks Canyon down from more Flag-centric people. Oh, there was a drilled pocket somewhere, the climbs are hella soft, blah, blah, blah... Then, when I started hitting The Pit, I remember thinking how similar the two places were. Except Jacks probably has less trash and concentration of annoying dogs/people running around.

When I went to The Peaks as a visiting Phoenix sporty, I picked up trash, left biners at the anchors, and even drove into town to return gear to locals. Locals were pretty nice to me too. But instead of projecting that larger community spirit, I sense from some of those posting a desire to retreat into a provincial and elitist sense of entitlement, as well as some (perhaps, medical condition induced) apathy over sharing the resources. That's ugly.

Colonel Mustard wrote: ... TIA?

tic?