How to tell a sport route from a bolted trad route (?)

Well, that's guys. I'm assuming the safe fall aspect applies less to routes in the sub 5.10 range where ledges are common.

Ashort wrote:http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/adam-ondra-514d-first-ascent Trad or Sport?

Proof that being a good climber doesn't mean you are smart. Although I like the concept of doing a ground up bolting, in the case of the way he is doing it he is more likely damaging the route / rock trying to bolt it. So once he has it bolted the route is likely different than when he started due to breaking rock off unnecessarily.

I don't think there is really a good way to bolt hard routes. Randomly bolting without climbing ends with bolts in a bad location alot of times (climbed many routes that have bolts in bad locations and even ones that were re-bolted and made it near impossible for me to climb safely due to the new bolt locations) but at the same time trying to bolt on lead can also lead to some really bad stuff.

Mathias wrote:Well, that's guys. I'm assuming the safe fall aspect applies less to routes in the sub 5.10 range where ledges are common.

I disagree. I've been on many well thought out sport 7's and 8's where the bolts are placed to prevent hitting ledges. And I've been on poorly bolted sport 11's where ledge contact was 100% certain.

Mathias wrote:Well, that's guys. I'm assuming the safe fall aspect applies less to routes in the sub 5.10 range where ledges are common.

From all the varied responses, you can see that just like 99% of climbing questions it can be distilled down to: "It Depends"
To further muddy the waters, our prolific Mr. Langston once proclaimed that sport climbing doesn't even start until .12c.

A sport route is bolted in such a way that the leader can focus on executing the moves and not worry about the consequences of a fall, assuming good skills and a good belayer. In other words falling is safe, with the usual caveats.

It has nothing to do with how it was established (sport routes have been bolted on lead, ground-up). It has nothing to do with the mean distance between bolts.

ViperScale wrote: I don't think there is really a good way to bolt hard routes. Randomly bolting without climbing ends with bolts in a bad location alot of times (climbed many routes that have bolts in bad locations and even ones that were re-bolted and made it near impossible for me to climb safely due to the new bolt locations) but at the same time trying to bolt on lead can also lead to some really bad stuff.

There is a good way to bolt hard Sport routes that produces a high quality route when you're finished.

The first thing is to establish an anchor at the top of the route and as many intermediates (temp-bolts, threads or pro) you need to hold the rope close to the rock and near the line you think the climb will take.

I clip a doubled draw to the anchor and each intermediate. The static rope is clipped to the middle biner, and a dynamic rope to the bottom biner.

Once that's established I and several others, hopefully at least one short person, climb the route on TR. Using chalk we mark where the bolts should go or pretend we're clipping that chalk dot. Then it gets bolted, with a few adjustments that always happen when you're bolting.

Because of this approach, I know where the climbing line is, where the clipping holds/stances are, what rock needs to be cleaned or removed (loose), etc. The bolts are where you want them, not in a plumb-line down the face. I think it's stupid to have a clip be the crux of the route!

If you look up and the next bolt is a ways up there, then 1) there's no place to stop and clip, just go, or 2) there's a run of moderate rock on a harder route. In either case the potential fall will be safe.

I saw a place in MA that started with a golden bolt if it was mixed trad / sport

If you can't tell from the ground, bring some gear with you, just in case.

Jake Jones wrote: To even further muddy the waters, some routes have bolts left off of them where gear can protect in between bolts. Some of this is due to a time when the route was developed- when it was seen as acceptable to put as few bolts in as possible on a "sport" route. So it is possible to have a sport route that requires some gear, though that's becoming a thing of the past. They're out there though.

I would say this is pretty standard fair for most of the west coast. Not to say that there are not bolted climbs that would protect well with gear but I fell that all in all you see a lot of mixed routes.

Jake Jones wrote: So it is possible to have a sport route that requires some gear, though that's becoming a thing of the past. They're out there though.

I wish that was a thing of the past in my area. There's climbs that have been bolted in the last couple years that have exactly this -- sport except that one of the bolts would have been near a nice horizontal crack, so no bolt was added cause a gear placement would work. (In one of the particular examples, a bolt had been placed, and then was chopped because it was near a horizontal, taking the climb from sport to sport, plus gear for one placement. *sigh*)

Some local route protection patterns:

gear, bolt, bolt, gear, bolt, bolted anchors (cleaned & bolted within last 2 months)
high bolt, bolt, gear (chopped bolt), bolt, anchors
bolt, bolt, gear, bolt, gear, anchors
bolt, gear (or run-out easy terrain, but groundfall), bolt, bolt, bolt, bolt, anchors.
bolt, bolt, bolt, bolt, gear (or run-out), anchors.

Almost all of those gear placements are in an obvious horizontal crack. One placement. Not a section protected by a series of placements while following a crack. Grades are 5.6-5.10a.

I don't have a general problem with mixed routes -- a route that has a substantial amount of gear-protected climbing, but also sections without good protection -- those I like seeing as mixed climbs. Another local area has a lot of climbs like this because of the pattern of the rock: it tends to have cracks running up the steeper part, but as it rounds off at the top, the top has been glacier scraped, and the cracks fade turning into slab. Many of these climbs will be mixed -- gear up the steeper crack, then bolts for the slab. Or a climb that includes discontinuous cracks, with bolt(s) as you transfer between one crack system and another. This sort of route development makes sense to me. But the climb that is, really, a sport route except for one placement -- that doesn't make sense to me.

David Gibbs wrote: I don't have a general problem with mixed routes -- a route that has a substantial amount of gear-protected climbing, but also sections without good protection -- those I like seeing as mixed climbs. Another local area has a lot of climbs like this because of the pattern of the rock: it tends to have cracks running up the steeper part, but as it rounds off at the top, the top has been glacier scraped, and the cracks fade turning into slab. Many of these climbs will be mixed -- gear up the steeper crack, then bolts for the slab. Or a climb that includes discontinuous cracks, with bolt(s) as you transfer between one crack system and another. This sort of route development makes sense to me. But the climb that is, really, a sport route except for one placement -- that doesn't make sense to me.

I agree. If I go to a crag or area that's mixed (I'd call it "Sprad", "Mixed" has ice.) I take a light rack in addition to quickdraws. No problem.

Where I have a problem are areas that are basically 98% sport with two or three routes that need gear... and they don't tell you what sizes to bring or how much. ("... and a few pieces of gear...") Those routes almost never get done, you might as well take 'em out of the guidebook.

Jake Jones wrote: ...It should. ...So it is possible to have a sport route that requires...

So you agree?

Jake Jones wrote: This is kind of a slippery slope. If it's developed ground up, it's still generally considered traditional in most places, even if a stance is hooked to fix gear or put in a bolt. I think.

As with everything in this sport, there is no one right answer and it all depends on the situation, but when you get into very steep sport climbing it is almost always developed from the ground up with aid. The reason for this is that it is impossible to get in close enough to the rock to place bolts when trying to develop top down. This is the type of route I was referring to in my post. You are of course correct that many trad routes are put up while bolting from a hook.

In reality, John Byrnes definition is the best one for determining if a route is sport or trad if you know nothing about the FA. Safe to take falls = sport, runout and you could get hurt = trad. The only real problem with this definition is that many of the early sport routes are quite runout by todays standards.

kennoyce wrote: .. but when you get into very steep sport climbing it is almost always developed from the ground up with aid. The reason for this is that it is impossible to get in close enough to the rock to place bolts when trying to develop top down. ..

Perhaps where you are, but I and my friends have put up plenty of steep sport climbs and I have always started from the top down if it is practical to get around to the top. I just use aid and possibly some small easily removable and patched work bolts for directionals to clean and work the moves enough to be sure of the line and the final bolt placements. If you can aid up you can aid down. It is a lot easier and safer top down imo. If it was some humongous cave with a nasty upper portion, than sure, I might go ground up.

When is a gear protected route not trad? Indian Creek?

John Byrnes wrote: Where I have a problem are areas that are basically 98% sport with two or three routes that need gear... and they don't tell you what sizes to bring or how much. ("... and a few pieces of gear...") Those routes almost never get done, you might as well take 'em out of the guidebook.

As Steve Levine (I think) put it: 'Not every monkey gets to climb every tree.'
I'm OK with those. leave them in the guidebook. Then at least folks such as myself know that there is something that they can get on at the crag without a line.