Advice: CCC or Boulder Canyon or something else?

Thanks for all the advice. Here's our plan:

We will rappel whenever we can. However, if it feels sketchy (overhung w/ draws still left to clean?) or someone doesn't feel like they're getting it right, we will lower. I will be disappointed if we ever have to lower off the anchors, but in the end if the person feels like they might die, I will gladly lower them.

As a side note, we will always lower off of our own gear unless it's the last person up.

We are all super-pumped to be there this weekend. Thanks again for all your responses!

Jim Turner wrote: Really? Or are you exaggerating to make a point?

Yes, really. I also won't climb with folks who can't give a soft catch or who are lackadaisical about keeping their brake hand on the rope.
I'll make exceptions for old friends. If they kill me, then maybe it was meant to be.

I have exaggerated slightly. When trad climbing, I figure rapping is the default option so don't worry about this issue. But my comfort zone on trad routes is so small I mostly stick with old friends or my wife on those days.

Dan Parisian wrote:Thanks for all the advice. Here's our plan: We will rappel whenever we can. However, if it feels sketchy (overhung w/ draws still left to clean?) or someone doesn't feel like they're getting it right, we will lower. I will be disappointed if we ever have to lower off the anchors, but in the end if the person feels like they might die, I will gladly lower them. As a side note, we will always lower off of our own gear unless it's the last person up. We are all super-pumped to be there this weekend. Thanks again for all your responses!

Dude, that's as balanced as a local can ask for.
The main point is to do what you can to minimize impact.
Have a good time!

Dan, remember to close the system when belaying. People have been lowered off the end of their ropes more than once in recent years in ccc. In clear creek and BoCan a 70 meter rope is necessary for many routes.

Greg D wrote:Dan, remember to close the system when belaying. People have been lowered off the end of their ropes more than once in recent years in ccc. In clear creek and BoCan a 70 meter rope is necessary for many routes.

Oh, that's good advice - I hadn't thought about that. I don't know how many of our ropes have half-way marks on them, but that's a good habit to get into. Walls in here in Texas are lucky to be 70'

Greg D wrote: In clear creek and BoCan a 70 meter rope is necessary for many routes.

Yes, this tends to be more prevalent in some areas (e.g. Cat Slab) than others. I don't recall it being an issue at E Colfax (another reason to recommend this as a good starting place :))

Dan Parisian wrote:Thanks for all the advice. Here's our plan: We will rappel whenever we can. However, if it feels sketchy (overhung w/ draws still left to clean?) or someone doesn't feel like they're getting it right, we will lower. I will be disappointed if we ever have to lower off the anchors, but in the end if the person feels like they might die, I will gladly lower them. As a side note, we will always lower off of our own gear unless it's the last person up. We are all super-pumped to be there this weekend. Thanks again for all your responses!

Awesome Dan! Thanks for even asking the question in the first place. As someone who does some fixed hardware replacement in the canyon (nowhere near as much as the others Tony listed above), I really appreciate your thoughtfulness. I think many climbers do not realize that an anchor setup costs about $50 - ASCA is great, but most of the time we supply that out of our own pocket, not to mention the time that goes into doing the work. EVERY CLIMBER SHOULD DONATE TO ASCA.

safeclimbing.org/

And yes - there are a LOT of worn anchors in Clear Creek Canyon, particularly on the moderate ( < 5.10) routes. I was on a route last week that had a deep groove in the rap rings - once they start to groove, the wear accelerates because the rope is trapped in that location and wear is not distributed over the rest of the ring.

I strongly disagree with lowering being safer. When I rap, I am in control of my descent - especially when communication is very poor (as is the case at High Wire Crag where Phil had his accident - there were several other factors that were involved there). With a new climber who doesn't know how to set up a rappel, I don't necessarily think it is safer for them to untie, thread through and retie without having someone there to check their knot either. If the last climber in your party cannot set up a rappel, it's a great opportunity for the person who has the skills to climb the route again and get more mileage on. Or, sequence your climbers appropriately.

By all means lower off a steep/overhanging route - but there aren't too many of those in Clear Creek at the grades the OP was looking for. Can anyone name a 10c in CCC that can't be cleaned on rappel? I can think of a few that are PITA due to traversing lines, but still doable if you know a few tricks.

For the OP - if you are looking for fewer people, definitely select areas that have a bit more of a hike. You might check out Tiers of Zion and Beaver Brook - some of the best 5.9's in the area in my opinion (both accessed from Lookout Mtn). While not in the canyon proper, both have nice hikes, really good climbing and usually aren't too crowded. I hope you enjoy your visit - we have some pretty special places here, and thanks again for being thoughtful about taking care of them.

mountainproject.com/v/tiers…
mountainproject.com/v/lover…

ErikaNW wrote: And yes - there are a LOT of worn anchors in Clear Creek Canyon, particularly on the moderate ( < 5.10) routes. I was on a route last week that had a deep groove in the rap rings - once they start to groove, the wear accelerates because the rope is trapped in that location and wear is not distributed over the rest of the ring. I strongly disagree with lowering being safer.

The anchors on moderate routes are also the ones most likely to be ruthlessly TR'ed upon, which I would suggest is the real cause of most of the wear.

Either rappelling or lowering can be pefectly safe. My position remains that switching back and forth from one to the other is inherently and needlessly unsafe. If lowering wears the anchors a little bit more than pulling the rope through the anchors after a rappel, then I'll donate a little more to the ASCA in the interest of not seeing any more climbers hit the ground.

Mark E Dixon wrote: The anchors on moderate routes are also the ones most likely to be ruthlessly TR'ed upon, which I would suggest is the real cause of most of the wear.

Any time a weighted rope slides through the anchor, it is the same. It all adds up. Of course a dozen yo-yos per rope add up faster than a single lower, but it still all adds up.

Mark E Dixon wrote: If lowering wears the anchors a little bit more than pulling the rope through the anchors after a rappel, then I'll donate a little more to the ASCA in the interest of not seeing any more climbers hit the ground.

If you want to become more involved, we'd love to get you on board with a new BCC initiative that we are starting up now. You (or anyone else) can contact me if you feel like you'd like to make a special gift of time or $$$ towards it, or get involved logistically. Right now some o the major players are strained for time with 2 year olds and infants... so any help is great.

Tony B wrote: Any time a weighted rope slides through the anchor, it is the same. It all adds up. Of course a dozen yo-yos per rope add up faster than a single lower, but it still all adds up. If you want to become more involved, we'd love to get you on board with a new BCC initiative that we are starting up now. You (or anyone else) can contact me if you feel like you'd like to make a special gift of time or $$$ towards it, or get involved logistically. Right now some o the major players are strained for time with 2 year olds and infants... so any help is great.

PM me or text me. (7((not 303))- 6 double 3 - o 5.13) I've got kids and a full time job and a climbing obsession too, so not much free time, but I could find some cash anyway thanks to above mentioned job.

PS what's the new initiative?

Mark E Dixon wrote: PM me or text me. (7((not 303))- 6 double 3 - o 5.13) I've got kids and a full time job and a climbing obsession too, so not much free time, but I could find some cash anyway thanks to above mentioned job. PS what's the new initiative?

Well, as you knew, we've been paying for ($1000's) and replacing anchors (100's of hours at leasst) for a while at the BCC - and probably even knew that you could go to our website and report an anchor that needs replaced. You do that here:
boulderclimbers.org/what-do…

But we have engaged MP dot com with an anchors database to track and record anchor type/age/condition for the entire front range area, and are starting, much like what Greg G and company are doing in Eldo with ACE, an initiative to wholesale replace poor and non-ideal anchors. Hopefully in a few years you can remember red-heads and cracked leeper spinners... but not find one.

I'll be in touch!

For those that are not BCC members, and are interested or have questions, please visit us at:
boulderclimbers.org/

ErikaNW wrote:that had a deep groove in the rap rings - once they start to groove, the wear accelerates because the rope is trapped in that location and wear is not distributed over the rest of the ring.

Rotate the ring so the groove sits on the chains and the rope runs through a different part of the ring, might prolong the life of the rings just a tad more.

aikibujin wrote: Rotate the ring so the groove sits on the chains and the rope runs through a different part of the ring, might prolong the life of the rings just a tad more.

Spinning the ring is short term solution. This is an anchor ErikaNW helped replace on North Table. 1) Please don't top rope through rap rings. 2) When cleaning anchors rap when possible 3) Can we get back to the original topic? Dan - Let us know how your trip went! I hope you enjoyed the great (if a touch hot) weekend in Colorado.

-Jim
Double grooved rap rings from North Table. Anyone who has done crag stewardship could share similar photos. Please climb safely and responsibly.

I'm w/ Mark on this. I'll chip in additional money to the ASCA just so one doesn't have to feel guilty about being lowered off.

Jim W. wrote: This is an anchor ErikaNW helped replace on North Table

So in this instance, did the bolts and hangers have to be replaced because of the worn rings? If so, can we at least agree this is a really really crappy setup? Is there a reason we can't add a quicklink between the hanger & the rap ring? The rope will run way better & worn rings (which will last many many more TRs than aluminum biners) can be swapped out w/ a wrench.

reboot wrote:I'm w/ Mark on this. I'll chip in additional money to the ASCA just so one doesn't have to feel guilty about being lowered off. So in this instance, did the bolts and hangers have to be replaced because of the worn rings? If so, can we at least agree this is a really really crappy setup? Is there a reason we can't add a quicklink between the hanger & the rap ring? The rope will run way better & worn rings (which will last many many more TRs than aluminum biners) can be swapped out w/ a wrench.

A few things...
1) If you want to lower through anchors guilt free, that's a lot of cash. What we are shortest on is labor. Getting involved in the process of replacement is much more valuable. That said, the BCC is looking at the possibility of a program where someone may be paid (as in, their job) to replace a lot of anchors in the front range for then next few years. In which case it becomes a money problem again...
2)I can't tell you the percentage, but I can tell you that it is a common problem that even good bolts can not be removed without having to be replaced. Fixe is still working on the 'Legacy Bolt' but it isn't a reality yet. If you pull a bolt to replace a hanger, you are likely to be replacing the bolt as well.
3)It isn't a crappy set up. It's a great set up for what it is meant for - rapping. It is a crappy set-up for lowering from though. Links and chains would be much better. STAINLESS Links. The plated ones that people use corrode and can't be opened, then you are back to them being fixed to the hanger...
4) I think that for "lower-offs" a link, some chain and another link is pretty ideal. Please camo them, please use only stainless. Now, if only we could get developers to do that! Sometimes I'm just glad that they are not using homemade "solutions" (IE chopped sections of a bed-frame drilled out) and other days I get more idealistic.

Tony B wrote: 3)It isn't a crappy set up. It's a great set up for what it is meant for - rapping.

It's a cost effective set up for a multi-pitch anchor. It still twists the rope when you pull, but I suppose that's usually a minor annoyance, unless I'm using a 6mm cord.

Tony B wrote: you could go to our website and report an anchor that needs replaced. You do that here: boulderclimbers.org/what-do… But we have engaged MP dot com with an anchors database to track and record anchor type/age/condition for the entire front range area, and are starting, much like what Greg G and company are doing in Eldo with ACE, an initiative to wholesale replace poor and non-ideal anchors.

Tony, is there a place where this list is made public? I have started carrying quick links with rings (courtesy of the ASCA - donate!) and a wrench in my crag pack to replace worn out anchors when I find them, but I could be more proactive if I can look at that list.

I like the sound of this anchor replacement job ;) Wasn't Reeser trying to do this?

Dylan Cousins wrote: Tony, is there a place where this list is made public? I have started carrying quick links with rings (courtesy of the ASCA - donate!) and a wrench in my crag pack to replace worn out anchors when I find them, but I could be more proactive if I can look at that list. I like the sound of this anchor replacement job ;) Wasn't Reeser trying to do this?

The list is not set up to be public at this time, in part because it goes into an editable spreadsheet, and would be subject to potential disaster.

Reeser is indeed doing a lot of work in Eldo and is involved at that level, at least last I knew. If you know Matt, I'm sure he can get you connected or more involved if you like!

If you want to get more involved in the whole effort, feel free to contact me off of the forum and I'll get you in touch with Jason or Lenny from the BCC Most of what are are cataloging/fixing is bad fixed gear in the line of bolts/hangers/etc...

Things that are easily replaced with a wrench and links... tend to get handled by experienced climbers at some point prior to getting totally out of hand, so that's not the sorts of reports we are getting at this point, though we are open to them.

PS- you are carrying stainless steel links, not plated steel, right!?!?!?
I assume so if you got them all from the ASCA...