Two Rappel Questions

Muenter hitch should be the ticket. Doesn't twist your rope too bad if you don't use a 3rd hand and don't knot the ends.

Jon Hartmann wrote:That's nice that you donate to your local crag Jake, however, giving out advice to lower off fixed anchors to the MP public is giving advice outside of your local area. So maybe you'd like to donate to my local crag while you're at it? Thanks. Also, in what situation can you lower off fixed gear but not rappel off of it? Please enlighten me.

Don't do much steep sport climbing do you?

Actually yes I do. But if you read back, this entire discussion was based off of a guy saying he likes to lower "himself" off rappel rings on multi pitch routes. Not being lowered by someone else. I don't know how this keeps being brought back to sport climbing. Anyway, again, how is it that you can be lowered off rappel rings or mussy hooks or chains or whatever, but don't have the opportunity to rappel instead?

Oh okay. I get it. You're talking about routes that have perma draws on them .Just lower off the anchors and then pull the rope. That's a very specific situation and not what was being discussed here...but I stand corrected.

Jon Hartmann wrote:Actually yes I do. But if you read back, this entire discussion was based off of a guy saying he likes to lower himself off rappel rings on multi pitch routes. I don't know how this keeps being brought back to sport climbing. Anyway, again, how is it that you can be lowered off a climb but don't have the opportunity to rappel instead?

In the context of anchors on multipitch climbs? I can't think of a situation I've seen where you could be lowered off and not rap or any reason you'd want to for that matter. But since you say you do climb steep sport climbs, surely there are lots of situations you can envision where lowering off of the mussy's or rings is much safer than rapping? I'm sure you can even think of routes that would be difficult or nearly impossible to clean on rappel.

When sport climbing, I have no issue with lowering off of the anchors. It is worth the extra little bit of wear IMO in order to more efficiently and safely clean a route. In more traditional areas or areas that are not so steep, or even desert areas where sand causes a lot of wear on rings, I'll rap more often. I can only think of a couple of instances where I have lowered off of fixed anchors on the last pitch of a multi-pitch route to then finish rapping the route.

I agree that lowering off of sport anchors is not only a time saver but also safer. I've known plenty on really hard climbers that can cruise routes while clipping draws but don't have the skills to go off belay and set up a rappel for themself.

Jon Hartmann wrote:Oh okay. I get it. You're talking about routes that have perma draws on them .Just lower off the anchors and then pull the rope. That's a very specific situation and not what was being discussed here...but I stand corrected.

Sorry to bring it back to sport climbing, but there are plenty of steep routes with no permadraws that pretty much require you to lower off in order to clean (without having a person second the climb). Rapping is just not an option. But you're right, that is not what was being discussed here.

I have been enlightened. Thank you. :)

Pnelson wrote:Sooo, if I understand you correctly, you want to be able to thread the grigri backward so that you don't have to use an extra hand to hold down the brake lever. You would alleviate the fact that the backwards grigri will not lock up by using a prussik backup on your brake hand-side rope. This makes sense in theory, and is only slightly more dangerous than doing a single-rope rap on an ATC with the same prussik backup, but I think it is a case of overthinking and making stuff too complicated. Here's the simple solution for a single rope grigri rap in which you don't want to occupy both of your hands: use your chin to hold down the brake lever. Seriously. Try it.

Then your chin slips, and you get stabbed in the eye by the lever. One more illustration to add to the user's manual that comes with every brand new GriGri! Thanks for contributing!

I've loaded the GriGri backwards for my leader, before. He whipped off the wall, and his fall was enough to make a couple feet of rope slip through my hand. Just a minor burn is all I sustained, didn't even bother me. But, I caught the fall. There was enough friction. So, I understand your motive behind the idea of using a GriGri to apply enough friction to the rope to control your descent during a rappel. Be vewy vewy careful!

BJB wrote: Someone is likely to criticize this approach, but it is my preferred way to rappel on multipitch routes

I'm just gonna leave this here.

One big difference is that fixed gear on multi takes much more effort to replace

Ill usually carry a small bag with some spare hangers, nuts, quicklinks, wrench, etc ... When cragging to fix up worn or missing anchors

I wont carry it on multi generally ...

Lowering from chains on single pitch crags is fine in squamish generally ... However on multi its generally not the best to do it all the time ... If you do need to lower someone do it through yr draws and then the last person raps

As to rescues, one does hope those are rare events and you wont be constantly wearing out chains on multi getting rescued ...

On multi, especially with bolted anchors, we rap off biner blocks quite a bit ... There are certain advantages and disadvantages to it

;)

BJB wrote:When I forget my ATC and have to rappel, i just rappel with the grigri alone. This is done by tying into one end of the rope, running it through the chains, and then attaching the grigri to rope on the other side of the chains, then clipping the grigri to your waist. The grigri is loaded in the regular arrangement in this setup, i.e. the climber is on the typical climber end, the end coming out closest to the lever. This basically lets you lower yourself on an increasing loop. You can bring the rest of the rope with you as you go and feed it out to make sure that it doesn't get caught on anything. Someone is likely to criticize this approach, but it is my preferred way to rappel on multipitch routes because it allows you to easily stop, take account of your situation, deal with the rope if needed, and it is harder to rap off the end of your rope this way (it's necessarily slower).

Jon Hartmann wrote:BJB, by rappeling in the manner you describe, you're wearing down the rappel rings by letting the rope rub through it. It's completely safe but not kind to the rest of the people who are needing to replace the hardware. It's essentially the same as toproping through the anchor instead of your own carabieners.

I'm sorry, what were you saying Jake? Something about tunnel vision? Ahem..you want to bow out of this gracefully now? I kind of doubt that those posts missed your eyes. Especially since you just quoted my exact text, omitting the very first word of my post addressing BJB method of..gasp... lowering off fixed anchors on multi pitch Talk about trying to prove yourself correct buddy.