What have we done... or why the Peaks weren't posted

So, after a long hiatus from engaging in any MP debates I find myself entering into the fray once again.
Through the venue of social media it has been brought to my attention and the attention of many other Flagstaff locals that one of our greatest fears has been realized. That is, once we posted our beloved Peaks crag to MP the hordes would descend (or ascend as it may be) and we would witness the desecration of an area we tried to protect. This from a recent post by a friend of mine on what she found while visiting the Peaks this weekend.
"The Peaks. Sad and disappointed to see a fire pit, a candle, campers in the parking lot with wet wipes strewn around the tent, poo all over within 50' of the crag, toilet paper--a roll's worth, dogs with dirty smelly mouths, and talk of draw stealing. Maybe the access fund could create crag rules. It's unfortunate folks don't appreciate the magic of the crag, the gift to climb there, and the incredible nature there. It should be treated with the utmost respect. Ugh, tears."
Many that surf this site are likely aware of the back and forth discourse over the past 5 or so years regarding whether the Peaks should be posted on the web, or if it should remain a place that you could find by talking to locals or stopping in at the gym. I know it was with great consideration that it finally was entered into the MP data base and every attempt was made to explain to all visitors the special considerations that the area requires. I don't fault the decision to post, as a route developer I want people to climb my routes. And what better way to convey information about the crag. However, alas it seems that our best efforts have proven to be in vain. Please, as a community can we respect not only our home areas but also those that we visit as well. If you're going to Enchanted Tower, lock the gate and don't come in after dark. If you're going to the Creek don't climb on the walls that the ranchers ask remain untouched, on the Rez be respectful and kind to the locals, and on the Peaks please be aware of your impact.
This isn't to spur further debate in the vein of "Locals Rule" but rather to remind all of us to respect and enjoy our shared locales.
Also, a huge thanks to Ashley Maryn and Anne Mariah Tapp for hiking to the crag with a bucket and shovels to remove the feces they found. We appreciate your hard work and as a fellow climber I apologize for the fact that you had to do the dirty work.

Well said.

I appreciate your good work.

Thanks!

Scott Mc

Edited (08-08-2015) to add for continuity the 1st Peaks thread:

mountainproject.com/v/the-i…

Sad news, Dean. I thought keeping it off the web was a great idea too.

I am constantly trying to fix feeder trails and pick up cigarette butts, TP, etc when I go to Isolation. It is something people bring with them, an attitude that they can just relax and be free. But not responsible, for some reason.

Good luck.

Thanks for posting this Dean. I know what you mean about stirring the pot and the often negative comments that come about from it. But I think this is the right approach to addressing a new problem and the resultant growing pains associated with increased usage. Perhaps a sign at the trailhead constructed by USFS, access fund, AAC, etc, similar to what is at the forks would be a good start. Unfortunately some climbers feel like if there are no rules or signs pertaining to them specifically then there are no rules and they'll do whatever they like. There certainly are rules for the area, including limited camping in assigned sites only, and wilderness area rules at the crag itself. We have the benefit of knowing these rules because we live here but we can't expect everyone else to know them. Common sense would dictate that you learn the nuances of a new area but if that is not readily available online or in a guidebook then most folks won't expend the effort to dig deeper than that. In that case, I feel like it's up to us to spread the word and (gulp) get the agencies involved to prevent the abusive practices from developing and spreading. A big thanks to the folks that cleaned up the messes!

Thank you for posting up, Dean. Very well stated and reasonable sentiments. Tragic that a few clueless or uninformed visitors trash a much loved area.

Unfortunately this is a problem all over the world. I couldn't agree more that our wilderness needs to be respected and taken great care of. We need to keep open discussions of ethical use of our beloved lands. I would like to see a list of guidelines as well. With the age of the internet we have only exposed our beloved crags and made it easier for anyone to access/find them, this has also increased the use/abuse. The best steps we can take is to inform, educate and do our part leave no trace.

It would be great if a sign or attempts at education succeed at changing the habits of people who visit this and other areas. I would like to hear some examples of other areas where this has worked. While I did nothing to contribute to the development of that area, it means a lot to me because we live right at the bottom of the road where you turn to go up the mountain.
As I have mentioned before, a good portion of the fully bolted moderate routes would go relatively safely as mixed routes. I appreciate the developers’ enormous work and the intent to set routes that can be fun for everyone, but that’s one reason why more people are going there. Does anyone who has been involved with the development of that area think it might be worth re-evaluating and possibly modifying the amount of fixed protection on some of the routes?

I saw the "hordes" there, upwards of five years ago? The Peaks were a worst kept secret, for sure. In fact, I remember an event of some toilet paper discovery way back then. Lots of dogs romping, crowds, etc., etc. What has changed so drastically, is it really a lot worse?

Wag bags encouraged/dispensed, porta potties at the trail head funded by climber donations, etc., etc.. Which are the crags we think are managed well? Let's emulate that. Still, more people means we're going to see more things we don't like. I mean, I think I saw the same problems five years ago, it's probably more a matter of scale.

I remember being woken up at Jack's Canyon to some climbers who on their way out thought target shooting with high-powered rifles would be a fun activity before they left. It's the wild west sometimes out in AZ.

I thank those who developed this crag, it is a special spot. Also, having seen Manny in action, I think him for his stewardship and development ethos.

Who is the land manager and who is your local climbing organization (AKA Access Fund Regional)?

Colonel Mustard wrote:... I remember being woken up at Jack's Canyon to some climbers who on their way out thought target shooting with high-powered rifles would be a fun activity before they left...

If they didn't leave TP or shell/cases who cares? Shooting in multi-use areas is just as valid an activity as climbing...I am glad the OP made this thread though. I am an advocate of keeping local areas local for as long as possible. I shared this as a cautionary tale with the local group.

gription wrote: If they didn't leave TP or shell/cases who cares? Shooting in multi-use areas is just as valid an activity as climbing...I am glad the OP made this thread though. I am an advocate of keeping local areas local for as long as possible. I shared this as a cautionary tale with the local group.

Yeah, shooting in the a.m. right by a campsite where people are still getting some shut eye or brewing up some morning joe is totally valid and the best possible way to represent your activity. I have no idea what they left behind besides an unfavorable impression.

Locales for the locals is a pretty old concept in climbing, and practically a cottage industry in the cactus state. It's fine for a while until critical mass wins out, then you're just putting your head in the sand, and blaming all those a holes (who came because you kept inviting people to your local crag, who then invited people, who then invited people...) because it's easier than actually dealing with reality.

Like I said, I saw a lot of the above described years ago at this crag. Pretty much exactly as described, so is the problem now safe to ascribe to those descending/ascending hordes now that the vicinity has been entered into the database and the locals are off the hook?

Also remember it already being quite crowded in 2010.

It's a shame the things you describe, but hard to imagine the bulk of the deterioration took place since less than two months ago when it was posted on MP.

WSV

Tamara Hastie wrote:... Take it off MP...

may have no effect in the short term but long term...

Luckily we dont have these problems in Norway. Good luck with tge clean up. To many gymsters thinking their mom will come pick up their shit.

I still feel that education is better than secrecy. I tried to address every concern (aside from shitting in the woods), as best I could in the general description. You all have to remember that word of mouth only goes so far, and not everyone gets the message. Sure, every local that loves this crag doesn't want to see it trashed, but there are an awful lot of new climbers these days who just don't know what they need to know. Especially as gym born climbers begin to transition to outdoor pursuits. A few clueless people should always be expected. I mean come on, these are issues any traveled crag faces.

As I have said before, word of mouth is great for getting people to the crag, but does little for raising awareness of crag concerns.

As far as the USFS doing anything with the parking area, who knows? Maybe one of our local access representatives could look into that.

JJ Schlick wrote:I still feel that education is better than secrecy.

If you live in a big town, for me Flagstaff is a big town, then I agree education is key. If you live on the edge of a wilderness secrets may just be the way to go.

Fabian Kolbergsrud Espeland wrote:Luckily we dont have these problems in Norway. Good luck with tge clean up. To many gymsters thinking their mom will come pick up their shit.

Misattribution, in my opinion. I think they just don't care.
"Free camping" brings out the riffraff - and by that I mean the folks that piss/shit/and trash on everything.

Several posts here also feed my suspicion that the "keep it secret" crowd has a scapegoat that they wanted - MP.com or other publication. But in reality, the problem precedes the publication here.

The riff-raff always goes somewhere - it's just a matter of where.
And what do you do when you find out someone you know happens to be that riff-raff? That is where change can happen. Is it happening? Everyoine's single little turd that doesn' matter adds up.

In Boulder we are piloting a wag-bag program. It seems to be helping.

come live in Nor cal, amazing crags all around, plenty of projects and noone to climb them! All the places ive visited so far are covered in 10yrs of dust.

Thank you AMT and Ashley! Free Men of Flagstaff Climbing calendar for you both!

I agree with many posts here in that prevention is best. Though, we should continue with the crag clean ups. The Forks has been cleaned up every Sunday of forks fest. The Waterfall got some love from some Gnarbarians last year. I wasn't there but I think that Jacks got some attention recently as well as the Pit.

Tony B wrote: Misattribution, in my opinion. I think they just don't care. "Free camping" brings out the riffraff - and by that I mean the folks that piss/shit/and trash on everything. Several posts here also feed my suspicion that the "keep it secret" crowd has a scapegoat that they wanted - MP.com or other publication. But in reality, the problem precedes the publication here. The riff-raff always goes somewhere - it's just a matter of where. And what do you do when you find out someone you know happens to be that riff-raff? That is where change can happen. Is it happening? Everyoine's single little turd that doesn' matter adds up. In Boulder we are piloting a wag-bag program. It seems to be helping.

...murica? The land of freedom and child obesity. Guess you guys just live to concentrated.