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Two Rappel Questions

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
aikibujin wrote: What the... have you heard of a carabiner block? Single strand rap on C, pull on A, B is to prevent the whole thing from pulling through the wrong way.
That pic isn't a biner block. Its a knot block. Butterfly knot block. A carabiner block typically uses a clove hitch on a carabiner spine and that is the block.

I like a figure eight on a bite for my block. Bigger knot? Clipping the loop in like you pic shows for back up.

To the OP: no. Rap just like you'd lower a partner with the Grigri loaded correctly.
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

This isn't that complicated. Use the block to rap on a single rope or two ropes tied together. Don't rely on just a knot to jam at the anchor, people have died this way. Rap just like you belay. No backup needed. No threading it backwards (WTF?). When you rap with an ATC your brake hand is primary and the friction hitch is secondary. With a Grigri, the Grigri lever IS the back up to your brake hand, you still have two levels of control and can go hands free, just like with the ATC and friction hitch. If you truly want to go hands completely free and want an added level of security, tie another temporary knot below the device. Screw the Munter or the biner brake unless you really have NO device (of course know these if you really do have no device). If you have your Grigri, it is a perfectly good rap device. Aid climbers use the Grigri to rap all the time and rapping steep aid lines with the weight of a haulbag can be some of the most difficult rappelling around. It is pretty much the only device I use when rapping with a heavy haulbag.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
FrankPS wrote: If you don't have your ATC available to rappel, learn to rappel on a munter hitch or a carabiner brake. No devices necessary.
+1





Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433

Thanks all. Thanks for the advice to use bight backup knot for standard grigri rap. This still isn't that desirable of an option, but gotcha. I'm sure if I were doing this often I would be fine with it.

I thought in the grigri pamphlet it said something like "if you load the grigri backwards it effectively works like a tube style device". I must be wrong about that.

So it sounds like I should just imprint the biner-brake method into my mind.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
Tom Sherman wrote:Thanks all. Thanks for the advice to use bight backup knot for standard grigri rap. This still isn't that desirable of an option, but gotcha. I'm sure if I were doing this often I would be fine with it. I thought in the grigri pamphlet it said something like "if you load the grigri backwards it effectively works like a tube style device". I must be wrong about that. So it sounds like I should just imprint the biner-brake method into my mind.
The munter rappel is easier to set up than the carabiner brake. The twists are temporary and not that big of a deal.

Just leave your ATC on your harness and none of this will be an issue. I do, however, understand that you can drop or lose your ATC, but that should be a once-in-a-climbing-career event (and I've had my once in 17 years, so it better not happen again!).
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

On dropping an ATC.
Belay plates have a wire loop. The ropes can be inserted and removed from the device without removing the wire loop from the carabiner. If you do this you will NEVER drop your belay plate.

It is interesting that isn't common knowledge, even though it is one of the reasons for the loop.

To do this:
1. leave locker closed
2. thread ropes into belay plate
3. pull ropes down over the locker's gate and push them against the gate to open locker.
4. lock locker.

Sorry to all that know this, but I often see people fumbling at a rap station and have seen many a belay plate dropped, and have wondered why people take the thing off the locker.

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
David Coley wrote:Sorry to all that know this, but I often see people fumbling at a rap station and have seen many a belay plate dropped, and have wondered why people take the thing off the locker.
Maybe it's just not very intuitive. I try to teach anyone I climbed with this method, even if they’re just setting up to belay so it can become second nature to them. But people usually revert back to the method of taking the belay device off the locker, set up the belay/rappel, then clip it back to the locker. I think it’s because that way they can visualize the set up better.
Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433

Well I also notice that people are just wishy-washy in whatever they do. I do everything the same every time I do it. I'm pretty anal about it, but it works for me, I do:

Locker on belay loop, gate facing right
Rope in the right side of the device

Seeing as most people are right handed ^ this makes sense to me (and also makes sliding only the rope out of the gate easy). I also tie in to the right side of my belay loop when going through my tie-ins, but i'll leave out any more neurotic tendencies.

What I am getting at, is if you put your biner on your belay loop differently every time, and you have no preference whether it's in the left or right slot, your bound to setup the ATC in way where it is not intuitive to just slide the rope out and leave the keeper loop in. Different strokes for different folks I guess...

BJB · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 195

When I forget my ATC and have to rappel, i just rappel with the grigri alone. This is done by tying into one end of the rope, running it through the chains, and then attaching the grigri to rope on the other side of the chains, then clipping the grigri to your waist. The grigri is loaded in the regular arrangement in this setup, i.e. the climber is on the typical climber end, the end coming out closest to the lever.

This basically lets you lower yourself on an increasing loop. You can bring the rest of the rope with you as you go and feed it out to make sure that it doesn't get caught on anything.

Someone is likely to criticize this approach, but it is my preferred way to rappel on multipitch routes because it allows you to easily stop, take account of your situation, deal with the rope if needed, and it is harder to rap off the end of your rope this way (it's necessarily slower).

Jon Hartmann · · Ojai, CA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,766

BJB, by rappeling in the manner you describe, you're wearing down the rappel rings by letting the rope rub through it. It's completely safe but not kind to the rest of the people who are needing to replace the hardware. It's essentially the same as toproping through the anchor instead of your own carabieners.

Jon Hartmann · · Ojai, CA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,766

Yeah but BJB was talking about using that method on mutipitch routes. Usually rappel rings on multi pitch. Also, regardless of whether it's acceptable in your area (or not) to lower yourself off fixed anchor pieces, it definitely does wear them down and cause need for replacement sooner than if you rappeled like normal.

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175
Tom Sherman wrote:EDIT: OH YEAH! I knew this forum would get very distracted. If anyone has any intention of trying to stay on target here I'll explain my question one more time. Can I load my grigri backwards, extend it off of my harness with a 24" runner and use a prussic below it, for rappels. The scenario where this is even a question, would be finding out at the crag that I have left my belay device at home. The advantages of this setup would be, ability to extend the rappel of your harness, the ability to maintain two hands on the rope, the ability to use a prussic, and also not having to fiddle with the grigri arm while doing a rappel. If anyone has any experience with this it would be appreciated. The types of answers I am looking for are: "Tom I have never known anyone to do such a thing" "Tom I have direct knowledge that, that is not a good thing to do" "Tom I've seen that done before". Also if you know that this is not an accepted practice, can you offer up a preferred "I forgot my ATC, rappel technique". I am sort of side-stepping the idea of the munter here because of twists in the rope. I guess if no one has any answers here I'll review FOTH and try to practice the biner-brake method. Thank you. And by all means continue with the how to do a 'biner-block rappel' and 'yer gonna die if you setup the grigri backwards' thread variants. _______________________________________ ORIGINAL I just bought a grigri, the gym requires it. And I about had an aneurysm swapping my ATC for it before heading out, because my ATC is a 'live on the harness' piece. So question is this, if I find myself w only a grigri, can I flip it around backwards and rappel with it, is this a thing? Standard protocol? Also, been wondering for a long time, I was taught to stack rappels for new climbers, is this an accepted practice? I.E. I setup my partner on rappel, then I set myself up 'beneath' them, then I manage the rope on the way down, and give them a firemans'. I've done this several times, and just wanted to make sure it's normal. I understand it's not ideal for certain types of raps.
Climbing friend,

You would be doing the dying.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Aleks Zebastian wrote: Climbing friend, You would be doing the dying.
As usual Aleks speaks the truth.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Jake Jones wrote: And? What do you think is at the top of most sport routes? I would venture a guess that most multipitch routes with bolted and ringed anchors see less traffic.
youve obviously never climbed multi in squamish ...

;)
Jon Hartmann · · Ojai, CA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,766

I don't really see what point you're trying to make Jake. Are you trying to say that lowering off anchors is okay because you're expecting someone else to replace them for you thanks to your poor rappeling practices? Because I agree with you if that's the case. Also, in Yosemite and in many other multi pitch locations the rappel rings are frequently aluminum not always steel. So lowering yourself off rappel rings works in ONLY SOME situations, (while still wearing down the rings or anchors regardless) so why use a poor practice of lowering off gear that is only acceptable at SOME sport crags, (not at my local areas) or off SOME steel rings when you could just do it the right way?

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175

climbing friend,

I am hearing that the rappelling off the climbing rocks may also be better for your own rope, in many cases, more than lowering, Myah?

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175

climbing friend,

I feel an internet-wang-slap fight coming on, for serious. Myah?

Jon Hartmann · · Ojai, CA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,766

Jake, when I said "your" poor rappeling practices, I guess I should have said "peoples" poor rappeling practices. This isn't personal buddy. I stand by my comment that lowering "self" off and fixed gear, whether acceptable in your area or not, still prematurely wears down the metal of said gear. So lower "self" off fixed gear if "self" likes, it's still, in my opinion, a poor practice while "the person" could just rappel and preserve the fixed gear that the developers so kindly gifted to the community.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Jake Jones wrote:What do you do when you can't rap?
He selflessly jumps
Jon Hartmann · · Ojai, CA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,766

That's nice that you donate to your local crag Jake, however, giving out advice to lower off fixed anchors to the MP public is giving advice outside of your local area. So maybe you'd like to donate to my local crag while you're at it? Thanks. Also, in what situation can you lower off fixed gear but not rappel off of it? Please enlighten me.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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