Two Rappel Questions

EDIT:
OH YEAH! I knew this forum would get very distracted. If anyone has any intention of trying to stay on target here I'll explain my question one more time.

Can I load my grigri backwards, extend it off of my harness with a 24" runner and use a prussic below it, for rappels. The scenario where this is even a question, would be finding out at the crag that I have left my belay device at home. The advantages of this setup would be, ability to extend the rappel of your harness, the ability to maintain two hands on the rope, the ability to use a prussic, and also not having to fiddle with the grigri arm while doing a rappel. If anyone has any experience with this it would be appreciated. The types of answers I am looking for are: "Tom I have never known anyone to do such a thing" "Tom I have direct knowledge that, that is not a good thing to do" "Tom I've seen that done before". Also if you know that this is not an accepted practice, can you offer up a preferred "I forgot my ATC, rappel technique". I am sort of side-stepping the idea of the munter here because of twists in the rope. I guess if no one has any answers here I'll review FOTH and try to practice the biner-brake method. Thank you.

And by all means continue with the how to do a 'biner-block rappel' and 'yer gonna die if you setup the grigri backwards' thread variants.

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ORIGINAL

I just bought a grigri, the gym requires it. And I about had an aneurysm swapping my ATC for it before heading out, because my ATC is a 'live on the harness' piece. So question is this, if I find myself w only a grigri, can I flip it around backwards and rappel with it, is this a thing? Standard protocol?

Also, been wondering for a long time, I was taught to stack rappels for new climbers, is this an accepted practice? I.E. I setup my partner on rappel, then I set myself up 'beneath' them, then I manage the rope on the way down, and give them a firemans'. I've done this several times, and just wanted to make sure it's normal. I understand it's not ideal for certain types of raps.

Tom,

Do you have a more experienced partner/mentor that can help you?

Your Gri-gri can be used to rappel, but you must use a blocking knot on the rope since you will be rappelling on only one strand. When you rappel with a Gri-gri, the climber's side is the rope above you, the brake side is below you, just like when you're belaying.

You can "stack" (as you call it) the rappels, but it's best to rappel on an extension when you're doing that:

climbing.com/skill/pre-rigg…

Get someone to show you.

Yes, to both. But don't load the Gri backwards or use a backup. (Edited for clarity)When rappelling with a Gri-Gri be sure to use a blocker knot on the opposite strand you're rappelling on. Stacking rappels is very common in guiding. But, like Tico said, too much theoretical internet info is dangerous.

But my question with gri is this, I want to extend my rappel, I want a Prussik below my gri, so does anyone flip grip to use effectively tube style?

Prepare yourself... you're about to get anihlated by the kind people of the interwebs because you asked a silly question.

I don't know what you mean by "flipping it around backwards and rappeling." Don't be trying to use a gri gri backwards, they have no backwards setting. You can rappel with a gri gri, but it is different than your ATC and you should have someone knowlegeable teach you.

Stacking can be fine or it could be dangerous if you end up swinging on rappel and pulling them off their stance and into the rock. It all depends on the location of the ledge, anchors, climbers at the rap station. You need to have the knowledge to evaluate each rappel. Giving a firemans belay is always a good idea.

• To clarify: it sounded like you wanted to run the rope in reverse through the Gri gri.

No, you don't flip the Grigri to rap. You rap just like you're lowering someone (in this case, yourself).

Tom, I've use a grigri 3 times in my life (finally have one coming), but I understand the mechanics. Fro. My understanding, they only work in one direction.

An alternative to the back up knot on single pitch sport climbs (assuming your partner is at the base) could be as follows:

Set the rope up for a rappel. Have your partner put you on belay. Put your grigri on the opposite side of the rope from your partner (very important, so you don't die). Check the system and have them take out the slack (tp minimize the rope stretch) and lock off their belay device. Rap on your strand.

Honestly, I wouldn't use this as a standard rap setup, but if you both forget your ATCs, I think it'll work okay. Others may feel differently, which I'd be interested to hear about.

Mathias wrote:An alternative to the back up knot on single pitch sport climbs (assuming your partner is at the base) could be as follows: Set the rope up for a rappel. Have your partner put you on belay. Put your grigri on the opposite side of the rope from your partner (very important, so you don't die). Check the system and have them take out the slack (tp minimize the rope stretch) and lock off their belay device. Rap on your strand. Honestly, I wouldn't use this as a standard rap setup, but if you both forget your ATCs, I think it'll work okay. Others may feel differently, which I'd be interested to hear about.

aikibujin wrote: What the... have you heard of a carabiner block? Single strand rap on C, pull on A, B is to prevent the whole thing from pulling through the wrong way.

Tom Sherman wrote:But my question with gri is this, I want to extend my rappel, I want a Prussik below my gri, so does anyone flip grip to use effectively tube style?

You don't need to reepschnur/carabiner block if you've pre-rigged a plate and the ropes aren't skinnier than the plate can deal with. There's a dangerous amount of info here, Tom, you really should get together with someone experienced or professional to go over the "why's". Don't just learn the superficial "how's".

I'VE UPDATED THE OP SO THAT THIS THREAD MIGHT ANSWER THE GRIGRI QUESTION
thanks

Here's your answer: No.

If you forget your device, get lowered or use the grigri to rap in the manner described in the user manual.

Jake Jones wrote:Tom, I have never known anyone to do such a thing.

I would think that the Gri-Gri would want to flip if rigged backwards and make the rap cumbersome.

When my partner and I have been clumsy on the crag and watched an ATC go for a ride I just simply put the anchor back up and lowered her to the next rap station then used my ATC for the rap.

I had a guide show me this technique. But I am not sure that I wouldn't prefer a munter instead.

4 carabiner rappel

Sad you have to be forced by your gym to get probably the best single piece of climbing hardware ever made:-)
I´ve rapped miles with a Grigri, probably over 100,000metres by now (comes of bolting on a rap line). Just use it like it was intended, no extending, no autobloc, no nothing.
If it´s a long way (+50m or so) or you´ve a lot of weight then a biner block above is useful.The cam gets hot otherwise.

Tom, if you want to know how the setup you're describing works, why not grab your gear and a rope, find a tree or a beam or something and try it at a low height above ground level? I think that'll tell you a lot about it.

My perception of this setup is that you're not going to have nearly enough friction through the grigri because you'll be using it backwards. And so you're going to end up daggling off of the prusik.

As far as giving you an alternative to an ATC, I think the reepschnur method will cover you just fine. And if you're asking for experiences of people successfully rapping a single line with a backwards loaded grigri, I don't think you're going to get much. Just consider how easy it is to pull slack through a grigri when belaying a TR. That's the level of friction you're going to get by loading it backwards.

Jake Jones wrote:Tom, set that bad boy up just like you do when you're belaying. Set up a reepschnur rap- use yer Googlemachine for more info, but here's a pic. You can extend it if you want, and use a friction hitch, but I generally don't when using a Gri or Cinch to rap. Don't extend too far though, you need to be able to comfortably reach the lever on the Gri. This pic depicts joining two ropes. If you're not joining two ropes, picture it without the overhand (EDK) joining the two ropes together. Everything else is the same.

Sooo, if I understand you correctly, you want to be able to thread the grigri backward so that you don't have to use an extra hand to hold down the brake lever. You would alleviate the fact that the backwards grigri will not lock up by using a prussik backup on your brake hand-side rope.

This makes sense in theory, and is only slightly more dangerous than doing a single-rope rap on an ATC with the same prussik backup, but I think it is a case of overthinking and making stuff too complicated.

Here's the simple solution for a single rope grigri rap in which you don't want to occupy both of your hands: use your chin to hold down the brake lever. Seriously. Try it.

Tom Sherman wrote:The scenario where this is even a question, would be finding out at the crag that I have left my belay device at home.