offset cams question

I have some metolius offsets and although haven't had them very long do find them nice to have in the valley. Their narrow and seem to fit in small shallow flares or scars. The only design issue that stands out to me is the trigger cables are a bit bulky and can limit super tight placements. I do like the x4 rollers that protect the stem also. Any other feedback would be cool, thanks in advance.

SRB25 wrote:Seems like Metolius 0/1, 1/2, 2/3 are very useful on many routes. Certainly if pin scars are abundant. Muscrat, how have you found x4s superior to metolius. I'm in the market for some new ones.

I was heading up Serneity/Sons and the party up next was having the typical Serenity 1st pitch discussion ("Really, I think this is your pitch, looks like you're style") IE it may only be (valley) 5.9, but that first piece is WAY UP THERE! (Hey, i won't lead it...)
SO....i offer to tag a line up, set a 3 piece 'toprope' 40 feet up, and let them get on with it. Good enough, all smiles. I used their gear. X4 offsets. Went home and bought a set, sold my offset Mastercams to my partner.
Reasons: I am an alien guy, and as we all can see, BD took some of the best ideas from CCH and incorporated them.
But i really like the armadillo on the stem, the color coding (the offset cam lobes, the armadillo and the sling are all colored). Ever fiddle fuck around with offsets trying to decide which is the smaller lobe...hanging by one finger? Not fun, and in the smaller sizes, the lobes are difficult to distinguish on the ground, let alone hanging.
The dual axle. Compare the range with other cams. Awesome.
Trigger action is excellent, even in the larger sizes. Can't say the same of Mastercams.
Talk to the engineers at BD about passive loaded cams. Can't do that with aliens (still no cam stop).
Longevity. BD builds tanks for gear, they just keep going.
And yes, i have read the thread(s about X4 failures...jury is out.
So all in all, ease of use, bomber product i don't think about when i am placing.
And no, i do not work for nor sell them.

The funny thing about almost any piece of gear is if you carry it, you will find a use for it, and the next step is to conclude that you couldn't have done without it. (Tricams and Screamers come to mind.) If you have to get placements in pin scars (free or aid), then offsets are the tool of choice. Otherwise, in my experience, you can do perfectly well without them 99% of the time. So the question is, are you, in the absence of specific foreknowledge, going to carry specialized gear for the 1% probability you'll need it? And really, just how much specialized gear will you have to lug along to satisfy such a criterium?

Totem cams are fantastic, the best cam on the market in my opinion, and one of the things they do is handle downward flares better than regular cams. They also seem to hold better in slightly outward-flared placements, because the cams are directly and individually loaded. (They fit where other cams don't, walk less than any other cam, and are the hardest cam to get totally fixed as well.) But when the outward flare becomes more pronounced, an offset cam is going to work where a Totem won't, so when they're truly needed, you can't replace offsets with Totems.

rgold wrote:The funny thing about almost any piece of gear is if you carry it, you will find a use for it, and the next step is to conclude that you couldn't have done without it... Otherwise, in my experience, you can do perfectly well without them 99% of the time. So the question is, are you, in the absence of specific foreknowledge, going to carry specialized gear for the 1% probability you'll need it?

I used to carry brass offsets and ball nuts, but found I just wasn't reaching for them often enough. I don't see offset cams as particularly specialized. A lot of cracks have some flare or irregularity to them. I use the offsets less than the corresponding regular cams, but still 1 or 2 per pitch is typical.

And even when a regular cam would be perfect, an offset is still usually workable. If I've already used my 0.2 and 0.3 and a I want another piece in that size, odds are good I can get an offset to work. So if I'm going to carry a double set of cams, I want the second set to be offsets (in the smaller sizes, I find the largest offsets less useful).

My 2 cents

Having climbed mostly in Joshua Tree, Tahquitz, Red Rocks and Tahoe (Lover's Leap and Sugarloaf), I never understood the excitement about offset cams. However this year climbing in Toulumne and Yosemite, I can think of 3 pitches where an offset is a bomber piece, and a regular cam is only loaded on 2 lobes.

Some of the blown out piton scars in cracks at the Gunks are great for offsets when a parallel cam would be all tipped funny

Yes, but this illustrates my point. Most cracks in the Gunks are horizontal and run for some distance. You can almost always place an ordinary cam someplace in the same crack in a spot that isn't scarred. So the offset cam is "essential" for the scar, but not actually at all essential. Sure, there might be an exception here and there, but puts us back in the specialized department.

i find myself using my black/blue alien pretty often, but the bigger offsets not too much. it's all route specific in my experience. additionally, you can probably place one on just about any route that isn't at the creek if you search hard enough. i have had bomber offset placements in sedona, granite mountain, j-tree, the dells, mnt elden, the forks, and i think even castle valley. but i also could have placed a normal cam nearby. it all depends

Alexander Parrish wrote:I'm just curious what locations are known for needing offset cams?

There is no that place. Obviously.

I don't think it is a matter of areas as much as it is a question of damaged climbs. The primary use for offset cams is in pin scars, especially on aid climbs. The reason is that often the crack in its pristine state won't take cams, but the pin scars are often substantially enlarged enlarged flared holes that make cam placements possible, but the flare often requires offset cams. Granite areas with substantial aid lines like Yosemite are the prime locations for offset cams, and of course if you are freeing old aid routes in such locales might want some offset cams on your free-climbing rack as well.

Muscrat wrote:...mostly in Sierra granite. Offset cams and DMM offset nuts are essential for my piece of mind. Add in peanuts and brassies and the world rocks...

Sierra Eastside eats these things up.

They rock @ Parc Julien Labedan.

Not just for pin scars, since there a none at PJL, but in outward flaring cracks.

rgold wrote:Yes, but this illustrates my point. Most cracks in the Gunks are horizontal and run for some distance. You can almost always place an ordinary cam someplace in the same crack in a spot that isn't scarred. So the offset cam is "essential" for the scar, but not actually at all essential. Sure, there might be an exception here and there, but puts us back in the specialized department.

by and large I totally agree. I just happened to be on Something Interesting on Sunday and wish I'd had a purple/green cause nothing was quite right, but again, you can climb up and place a little higher