$100 ten sleep 2015 guidebook, worth it?

powhound84 wrote: As a field guide, it's impractical.

The irony is that most new guidebooks are not really field worthy. They may look nice and pretty but they are printed and bound on crap materails...of course they aren't $100 either. :)

I absolutely will not buy it. A guidebook should include grade, number of bolts, anchor situation, approach information, and photos of the route, and for god's sake, GPS locations of all crags. That's it. It's not art. Not prose. Not poetry. It should be light, to the point, and affordable. This ridiculous trend makes guidebooks cost more than shoes. The sport is losing it's head.

beaulanier wrote:I absolutely will not buy it. A guidebook should include grade, number of bolts, anchor situation, approach information, and photos of the route, and for god's sake, GPS locations of all crags. That's it. It's not art. Not prose. Not poetry. It should be light, to the point, and affordable. This ridiculous trend makes guidebooks cost more than shoes. The sport is losing it's head.

Okay...so you feel completely entitled to GPS coordinates and it's the "sport" thats losing it's heads. Maybe the author can hold your hand too...maybe tie you in.

Mike Brady wrote: Okay...so you feel completely entitled to GPS coordinates and it's the "sport" thats losing it's heads. Maybe the author can hold your hand too...maybe tie you in.

Lol. Testy.

I've been well able to find crags on my own. Just pointing out that most of us have 100 apps on our iPhones that do everything, yet GPS has been out for years and is inherent in every smart phone, and nobody uses it. Strange. We use modern rubber, high tech gear, yet describe location information for crags in ways such as "turn by the big tree, cross the little stream, go around grandma's house". Pretty smart, effective, and universal technology that's totally not utilized.

In fact, if us MP users collectively began to take GPS coordinates at the base of every crag and input that into the MP guide/app for each area, guidebooks would be "optional".

Back to the POINT: I don't have the money for a 100 dollar piece of art when all I need is a guidebook!

I apologize for being testy. I don't have a smart phone or a gps unit. I just think that we may be getting to the point where we are losing touch with why we do this whole rock grippin' thing

beaulanier wrote: Lol. Testy. I've been well able to find crags on my own. Just pointing out that most of us have 100 apps on our iPhones that do everything, yet GPS has been out for years and is inherent in every smart phone, and nobody uses it. Strange. We use modern rubber, high tech gear, yet describe location information for crags in ways such as "turn by the big tree, cross the little stream, go around grandma's house". Pretty smart, effective, and universal technology that's totally not utilized. In fact, if us MP users collectively began to take GPS coordinates at the base of every crag and input that into the MP guide/app for each area, guidebooks would be "optional". Back to the POINT: I don't have the money for a 100 dollar piece of art when all I need is a guidebook!

No 4G in TenSleep brah, you'll be wandering all over the place looking for the tree and grandma's house crying to Siri that you don't get it and life's so unfair.

What would you do if MP gave you coordinates for each crag? Drive around looking for a GPS marker, get out of the car, input the coordinates of the crag and follow the arrow on your phone? What if the approach isn't a straight line? I'd love to see you tromping through brush and talus with your eyes on your screen mumbling that the crag is only 200' away as the crow flies? Oh wait, you want more than the coordinates of the trailhead and the crag, you want Siri to give you the step by step directions? Mmm, let's make uploading waypoints for each approach mandatory from now on, clearly it's a better option that giving a mile marker for the trailhead and a couple of obvious landmarks such as the tree and grandma's house down the way...

There was a thread on here recently about some kid getting lost in the shrub and finding the wrong crag because his nose was too stuck to his phone. The hunk of choss he found had the wrong orientation, wrong approach time, wrong type of rock, wrong everything. There were pics and GPS coordinates on MP, he still ended up climbing runout quartzite instead of granite patina. Without his phone he may has used his brain and realized that he was completely off the map. With his brain and a book he might have even found some granite. His (and your) reliance on electronics to navigate when there are infinitely better options is comical. And by better options I mean just looking around a bit. Quit being an entitled tool, books are a lot cheaper than lobbying cell companies to install 4G relays next to all your crags.

Mike Brady wrote:I apologize for being testy. I don't have a smart phone or a gps unit. I just think that we may be getting to the point where we are losing touch with why we do this whole rock grippin' thing

100 percent on the same page.

I'm low-high tech. I do it Spartan and old school as a rule, with just a bit of USEFUL high tech.

An artwork-guidebook is an oxymoron to me. Unnecessary equals Un-Spartan.

Boissal wrote: No 4G in TenSleep brah, you'll be wandering all over the place looking for the tree and grandma's house crying to Siri that you don't get it and life's so unfair. What would you do if MP gave you coordinates for each crag? Drive around looking for a GPS marker, get out of the car, input the coordinates of the crag and follow the arrow on your phone? What if the approach isn't a straight line? I'd love to see you tromping through brush and talus with your eyes on your screen mumbling that the crag is only 200' away as the crow flies? Oh wait, you want more than the coordinates of the trailhead and the crag, you want Siri to give you the step by step directions? Mmm, let's make uploading waypoints for each approach mandatory from now on, clearly it's a better option that giving a mile marker for the trailhead and a couple of obvious landmarks such as the tree and grandma's house down the way... There was a thread on here recently about some kid getting lost in the shrub and finding the wrong crag because his nose was too stuck to his phone. The hunk of choss he found had the wrong orientation, wrong approach time, wrong type of rock, wrong everything. There were pics and GPS coordinates on MP, he still ended up climbing runout quartzite instead of granite patina. Without his phone he may has used his brain and realized that he was completely off the map. With his brain and a book he might have even found some granite. His (and your) reliance on electronics to navigate when there are infinitely better options is comical. And by better options I mean just looking around a bit. Quit being an entitled tool, books are a lot cheaper than lobbying cell companies to install 4G relays next to all your crags.

Hilarious. You wasted all that time writing that?

For the record iPhone/smartphone GPS works with no cell signal. Worked fine the whole time I solo backpacked off trail in the Himalaya for three months, no cell, no guide, no babysitter.

Simple: when MP users are on a crag by a listed route, simply take a GPS point and add it to the app for the crag, by the route. Pocket Earth, Gaia, examples of perfect apps for this.

Why is this so hard?

Let's see... Assuming you're getting some deal on the hardware, $100 can get you 10 bolts and 10 hangers - 8 lead bolts + 2 anchor bolts for a say a 40' climb (conservative estimate give TS bolting standards). The amount of money, time, blood and sweat the author put into the area, consider $100 as a little repayment for all the awesome routes you get to climb plus you get a free guidebook! and art! and humor and 3D glasses! We all enjoy the vast amount of amazing climbing, free camping and hardly ever contribute anything to the local economy. Consider your investment in the guidebook as a little contribution to the locals.

100$ for a guidebook seems so stunningly extravagant to me. But, the latest Lander guide is 40$ and pretty coffee-table, at least to my mind.

Maybe this is the future, eh?, at least for sport guides. Us poor people won't be able to sport climb because we won't be able to afford the book. Just have to stay trad I guess. Probably a blessing in disguise to avoid all those people.

Don't like the price? Just do what everyone else does: walk up to a 10sleep crag, look around for white book with a revolver on the cover, and say, "Hey, can I look at your guidebook?". Proceed to take a bunch of photos on your cell phone.

I have had this happen to me over 6 times this year alone.

I understand before this past week the old one was out of print and thus cut folks some slack... but it's still kind of irritating and disrespectful to all the climbers who developed the area/worked on the book.

Nick Stayner wrote:Don't like the price? Just do what everyone else does: walk up to a 10sleep crag, look around for white book with a revolver on the cover, and say, "Hey, can I look at your guidebook?". Proceed to take a bunch of photos on your cell phone. I have had this happen to me over 6 times this year alone. I understand before this past week the old one was out of print and thus cut folks some slack... but it's still kind of irritating and disrespectful to all the climbers who developed the area/worked on the book.

Or do what I did when I went to Ten Sleep a few weeks ago, Walk up to the big limestone wall, look for a line of bolts that looks fun, and climb.

kennoyce wrote: Or do what I did when I went to Ten Sleep a few weeks ago, Walk up to the big limestone wall, look for a line of bolts that looks fun, and climb.

A-frickin-men

Really you guys want GPS for Ten Sleep? The whole place is one big wall. Hard to miss.

I honestly think that it is a huge waste of money. They are gouging the price because they think the book is "totally radical," and people should therefore pay an arm and leg. It's difficult to read, inconsistent, and if you aren't a regular there, you will never remember what all 947 symbols mean. Consistency is keys. Stars for quality, and a simple, easy-to-read description without giving away to much information is most ideal. Apparently that was too simple...and seriously? 3D pictures? How is that necessary? Sure its cool and all, but I don't want to have to take time to put on paper glasses that will tear in a month, just so I can look at a climb in detail from a different angle. C'mon, guys. And yes, some people are complaining about the price jack of the Lander book, but when you think about it, it make sense why. It is a longer book, so it will cost more to print. They added information for 11 more crags than the last book, with a total of 22 crags. That's a huge amount. It also High-definition full color photos with colored route trails, and it's larger. They beta has been updated, but it is still clear and concise. Lander book - worth it. Tensleep book - Not worth it. Borrowing one is better. I got lucky and found one in a thrift store for $6.

This might be considered trolling and feel free to think of my two cents as those of a hater, but I blame that goddamned guidebook for what amounts to the total ruin of Ten Sleep. Don't get me wrong, I like Aaron Huey. I have met him and think he is a nice guy. I think his artistic vision is worthy and he is an awesome photographer. However, ten years ago Ten Sleep was a great place to climb and free camping was plentiful. But lately, Ten Sleep has become a circus. The locals are not happy when they see vagabond dirt bags eating out of the garbage and using the public restrooms for bird baths. The splash pad is place for little kids to get wet and cool off during the summers, you are not allowed to bath in it. What used to be a fun place to visit is now crowded and a pain in the ass. I've decided to forgo the three hour drive and push onto Smith Rock where the route quality is better, the guidebook isn't "a bible" (nice job in pushing that creative envelope by the way), and civilization is abound despite the wait in line to get on a climb. I used to love Ten Sleep but it just isn't worth it anymore. Sorry if that offends but its my truth.

B. Climbin' wrote:This might be considered trolling and feel free to think of my two cents as those of a hater, but I blame that goddamned guidebook for what amounts to the total ruin of Ten Sleep. Don't get me wrong, I like Aaron Huey. I have met him and think he is a nice guy. I think his artistic vision is worthy and he is an awesome photographer. However, ten years ago Ten Sleep was a great place to climb and free camping was plentiful. But lately, Ten Sleep has become a circus. The locals are not happy when they see vagabond dirt bags eating out of the garbage and using the public restrooms for bird baths. The splash pad is place for little kids to get wet and cool off during the summers, you are not allowed to bath in it. What used to be a fun place to visit is now crowded and a pain in the ass. I've decided to forgo the three hour drive and push onto Smith Rock where the route quality is better, the guidebook isn't "a bible" (nice job in pushing that creative envelope by the way), and civilization is abound despite the wait in line to get on a climb. I used to love Ten Sleep but it just isn't worth it anymore. Sorry if that offends but its my truth.

I would blame the gyms, the media and anyone who has ever said anything along the lines of "growing the sport". Most areas are total shit shows now. I can't believe you want to go to Smith, that place is pretty much my worst nightmare, I live in Portland and I get my fill after one day there. Bishop and Josh are just sad sometimes of the year. Yosemite is straight up depressing.

Wow, that was negative...sorry. Rant over

Mike Brady wrote: I would blame the gyms, the media and anyone who has ever said anything along the lines of "growing the sport". Most areas are total shit shows now. I can't believe you want to go to Smith, that place is pretty much my worst nightmare, I live in Portland and I get my fill after one day there. Bishop and Josh are just sad sometimes of the year. Yosemite is straight up depressing. Wow, that was negative...sorry. Rant over

right. Boulder is a spiderweb of ropes.

Just so everyone is aware, it has come to my attention that Huey only receives $10.50 per guidebook sale! The $100 price, while high for a guidebook, would be readily paid if I knew he was getting his fair share...

Having met Aaron (the author) and been nothing but impressed with his community spirit, and having met Zach (the publisher) and been horrified at the agressive, mercenary approach to "writing" guidebooks (seriously, his Devils Tower book is an insult to toilet paper, let alone fire starter. It's so fucking terrible I distrust even the map that describes the tower's location), I'm not at all surprised.
Aaron's books are rad, bat shit insane bits of local ephemera. Zach's books are a error prone to the extreme, poorly considered cash-ins (vis his Gunks book).
It sucks that this is the price, and I won't buy it at that price, but I'll gladly buy the re-release when the dust settles.