Using adjustable aiders on aid climbs

I know there have been questions like this before. I've heard that using something like Yates adjustable speed stirrups is inefficient in leading and I've also heard that they wear down a lot faster than traditional aiders, eitiers and ladders. I've heard that they last around 50 pitches. I have no problem buying an item like this multiple times as I don't aid climb enough to mind. I have a set of Yates ladders and they've worked wonderfully in the past. However, most of the falls I've taken on aid routes weren't from sketchy placements as much as from me being tired, missteping while walking up and getting tangled in my ladders resulting in my falling. Also when I'm free climbing in between aid placements the ladders definitely annoy me even though I clip them into a bunch. Ive been considering buying the speed stirrups. I know they aren't comfortable but I am more concerned with people's advice about them not being good for leading. Why is that? It seems better to clip into the next piece and just pull the strap tight to instantly be in the "top step" position rather than needing to walk your feet up the rungs of the aid ladder. What am I not understanding about the process? Any insight would be wonderful.

It seems to me that the only (barely) viable way to use speed stirrups on lead would be to have four of them. That way you could have two for the piece you're on and two for the piece you're placing.

It would be pretty difficult to step up and keep your balance while pulling in the slack on the stirrup. And where's the top step position anyway? It might lead you to think you're getting up high on the piece, but really aren't.

I'd recommend you get a pair of Yates Speed Wall or Big Wall ladders. Clip one to the piece you've placed and walk up as high as you can get. When you place the next piece, clip your other ladder to it and repeat. Only one ladder per piece! Read up on MacNamara's big wall book or the many supertopo articles he wrote on aid climbing before publishing the book.

Thanks for the advice Ryan. I already have a pair of Yates big wall ladders and use them in the exact way you just suggested, but I'm not asking how to aid climb, I already have done enough of that, I'm just wondering about the technical shortcomings of using adjustable aiders for leading on. I see the problem with standing in 1 stirrup while clipping the other into the next piece. I feel like I could use 3 stirrups instead of 4 however. Also that's a good point about the highest position on the adjustable stirrups possibly being lower than the top step on my aid ladders. Anyone else have any advice on why the adjustable aiders aren't the best for leading?

I've used adjustable aiders (with adjustable daisies). Worked fine. I led with it. I didn't die.

I have regular aiders and daisies, too. They also work.

Adjustables are good when stuff is leaning &/or overhanging. They're kind of bothersome to use on the more straightforward stuff but magic on, say, overhanging hook traverses. Most of the time we aren't doing that stuff, so most of the time they're more trouble than they're worth.

Why is that Rob? What makes them better or worse?

P.S. I was thinking of using them on the overhanging The Prow of Washington Column in Yosemite

Jon Hartmann wrote:What makes them better or worse?

I feel that adjustable aiders and daisies are generally slower on most terrain. Like Rob said they are extremely useful on steeper stuff-I think they are really nice on horizontal roofs.

I have a homemade set of adjustable aiders that whoever cleaning the pitch uses to jug if I'm climbing with a partner. They are less bulk than a normal set of aiders.

Jon Hartmann wrote:It seems better to clip into the next piece and just pull the strap tight to instantly be in the "top step" position rather than needing to walk your feet up the rungs of the aid ladder.

So you place a piece at arms length, clip it with a daisy, cinch that daisy down, cinch the aider all the way up and then do a huge high step into it? Sounds like it could be very difficult if there aren't a lot of features to help you out. One of the benefits of traditional aiders is that you can quickly step up incrementally and stay balanced the whole time.

Jon Hartmann wrote:P.S. I was thinking of using them on the overhanging The Prow of Washington Column in Yosemite

When you say overhanging which pitch are you talking about? It's been a long time, but I didn't remember a lot of steep pitches.

Hmm, that makes sense. One huge step up at a time over and over again would be taxing. As far as The Prow goes, I was under the impression that most of it was steep to overhanging. I havnt done it yet, so I'm just going off of what I've read on Supertopo. It's my next aid climb on my to do list and I was just trying to figure out different methods. Seems like using my bulky Yates aid ladders might be the best way...

will ar wrote: So you place a piece at arms length, clip it with a daisy, cinch that daisy down, cinch the aider all the way up and then do a huge high step into it?

This is what I was wondering, and it seems hard on big moves. And if you were using two adjustable aiders to make incremental steps it seems like it would be a pain as well. On something like The Prow I feel like you want the ability to make huge moves and run up your steps. In fact I think you want that for most aid climbing. I definitely understand the desire to minimize cluster, but to me the benefits of a speed stirrup only truly shine when jugging or something of the like.

Edit to add: The prow is a steep clean face, but its not so overhanging that you're dangling in your ladder like a piñata, trying to find something to push off

I have used adjustable aiders on severely overhanging aid. They are so much easier to use it is practically a different sport.

Yes, they are fidgety. But they buy you something rather precious on the right terrain. I'm honestly not sure why I constantly hear the "you can't lead with them refrain."

I'd say just adjustable daisy chains might be the right balance, but adjustable stirrups have their place, too. Go try some!

teece303 wrote:I'd say just adjustable daisy chains might be the right balance

+1
Adjustable daisies with regular aiders is a fairly common set up. If you add a quickdraw/fifi hook that is perfectly adjusted for top stepping and maybe a spare biner on your belay loop you could keep the daisy fully extended for the majority of your climbing and use the adjustable feature when convenient. Could be a pretty efficient combo.

will ar wrote: +1 Adjustable daisies with regular aiders is a fairly common set up. If you add a quickdraw/fifi hook that is perfectly adjusted for top stepping and maybe a spare biner on your belay loop you could keep the daisy fully extended for the majority of your climbing and use the adjustable feature when convenient. Could be a pretty efficient combo.

+1

This is pretty much what I do. I don't use a quickdraw, but use 3 oval solid-gates chained together on my belay loop. That way I can choose which one to clip into based on the specific placement.

On the adjustable daisy front:
I find they get twisted and after a few moves I can no longer make them short enough because of the twists. I guess I need to be more organised.
Hence the other day I did a wall using 2m of 8mm girth hitched to my harness and a micro trax on each end. Being circular, twists in the cord don't matter. And being pullies the cord is much easier to pull in than tape in a metrolius adjustable daisy (not tried another make). I've no idea if the teeth in the trax are more or less likely to cut the cord than the clamp in an adjustable daisy. It worked really well.

Has anyone else do this? I think I remember Pass the Piton Pete had some such system but with a 2:1 advantage.

David Coley wrote:On the adjustable daisy front: I find they get twisted and after a few moves I can no longer make them short enough because of the twists.

Never seemed to have a big problem with adjustable daisies getting twisted (I used them on my first couple of walls). I always keep one on my right and one on my left.

David Coley wrote:Hence the other day I did a wall using 2m of 8mm girth hitched to my harness and a micro trax on each end.

I've never held a micro trax in my hand, but I'd think that the major downside of this would be how easy it is to extend the daisy back out. Yates and Metolious are nice in this regard since it is very ergonomic to hold the end and stretch it out. I think yates is a little better b/c you can quickly unweight it for a split second then press the button-useful when traversing or moving out a roof.

will ar wrote: Never seemed to have a big problem with adjustable daisies getting twisted (I used them on my first couple of walls). I always keep one on my right and one on my left. I've never held a micro trax in my hand, but I'd think that the major downside of this would be how easy it is to extend the daisy back out. Yates and Metolious are nice in this regard since it is very ergonomic to hold the end and stretch it out. I think yates is a little better b/c you can quickly unweight it for a split second then press the button-useful when traversing or moving out a roof.

Less twisted around each other, more just twisted. Basicly I'm useless!
Letting back out is much the same as the others - thumb lifts cam