Passing Etiquette

A team of bumblies anchored mid-pitch and struggling with thier system is more like a stalled car than a slow driver. Time is money, and the first-come, first-served ethic is not absolute. Why not pass?

Matt Williams 1 wrote:Birdman, It's just so indicative of our society these days where people only care about themselves and what they want and they want it right now.

I see it completely opposite. It's very greedy to think that as a beginner you will be able to climb the most popular route in a given area incompetently and you have a right to not be disturbed. If I heard that a leader dropped his ATC and was "building a munter" (WTF?), I would pass too. The beginner is greedy because they will greedily occupy a route three times longer than a competent party. It's greedy to use the Bastille to learn how to build munters. Instead, find a route way off the radar were you could spend all day learning how to "build a munter" without negatively impacting several parties day. Once you can climb without dropping your belay device you can then move on to the Bastille.

People do only care about themselves, and not just the competent climbers who want to send and believe it's their right, but also the incompetent climbers who want an "experience" and believe that is their right.

The question is: Who's greed trumps the others?

Pretty soon this predicament will turn into something akin to surfing culture, it's only a matter of time, and you old slow people don't box too well.

JQ,

You see it opposite because your are an idiot. Beginners are clueless maybe but not greedy.

Birdman,

You created this situation by your ridiculous decision to go up. It's not even worth analyzing their reactions, only to question your motivations. Because of your actions two different groups who were doing fine had do deal with your shit. You could have caused an accident or put yourself in a dangerous position around the inexperienced climbers. I hope you don't try this shit on the Diamond.

Everyone else,

The driving thing is a poor analogy.

I was ready to do the bastille crack and there was no one above us. I racked up across the street (but we have other stuff there by the base) then two climbers barefoot walked up to the start and started to put on their shoes to start climbing. I told them, hey, wait a minute, we were here first. Instead of saying, oh okay, well, then I'll go after you guys, the leader started questioning me about how fast I climb and how hard I climb, and how he has done it before and is going to link pitches. Younger and with a rack full of heavy oval biners as opposed to my modern anodized light weight biners, I asked where they were from. They said they were from Golden. Okay, locals. Since Boulder/Denver/Golden has such a reputation for a climbing mecca, could these two be 5.13 climbers in disguise? I thought I better not embarrass myself in front of them, so I said okay, you can go first.

Well, the leader was not bad, but not quite the 5.13 hardman I envisioned. He placed a piece about every 5 feet, laybacked some parts of the first pitch. It took him about a hour to do 2 pitches. Then his partner started climbing. I waited until he was a bit higher before I started climbing. The first pitch I placed 4 pieces up to the anchor and had to slow down to not tail gate. We had a plane to catch back to the corn fields later that day and friends to meet before the airport. Judging by the way things were going I was sure that we might be able to finish it before going to the airport, but we wouldn't be able to meet our friends. So I lowered and belayed my partner on top rope and then we called it and left.

So I let them pass so I can't complain too much, but I am now much less likely to let someone go. Next time this happens I'm just going to politely refuse. it's going to be an hours wait on average to let another party pass, unless they are simul or free soloing.

"Building a munter" is a funny way of saying "tying a hitch." Makes it sound like a major project, when it takes seconds to tie.

Long Duk Dong wrote:JQ, You see it opposite because your are an idiot. Beginners are clueless maybe but not greedy.

Ouch, taking that a bit personal are we? Saying someone doesn't have the potential for greed is the true idiocy.

Shit, it sounds like birdman just wants to share, how is that greedy? If he wants to create a cluster fuck on a cluster fuck, doesn't he have as much right to the shared public resource as the next climber?

internet expert wrote:I was ready to do the Bastille crack and there was no one above us. I racked up across the street (but we have other stuff there by the base) then two climbers barefoot walked up to the start and started to put on their shoes to start climbing. I told them, hey, wait a minute, we were here first. .

I think in order to solve these problems and manage peoples greed we should give out numbers at the base of these climbs like a deli. Each climber would have a predetermined and reasonable time on the route to themselves. If they are a shit show and go over the reasonable time limit they waive their right to have the route to themselves. For big lines this would mean passing, and for sport climbs this would mean next hang goes to the dirt. This would be a fair system where one persons could never greedily hog a classic route for an inordinate amount of time preventing others from accessing a shared public resource.

Or.

We can admit that everyone can be greedy, and the greedy motherf#$% who shows up first greedily gets the entire route to themselves for as long as they want. The aforementioned case of internet expert is a great example of how skill level is no indication of personal greed. They can drop their gear, hang, epic, leave a rope, and even greedily call for rescue when they are done.

Ethics are not logical or rational, they are based on tradition. Using tradition to call someone an idiot is f'in hilarious.

I pass people all the time. The amount of bitching doesn't affect me.

If I'm faster by a significant margin, I pass. If parties below are faster, I let them pass. No one owns the rock and if you want to avoid clusterfucks avoid the cathedral peaks of the world.

The couple in the OP were scared, fight or flight triggered that response. Comfortable happy people don't react that way, just stressed out n00bs. I know, I've been there.

At Eldo, where many routes crisscross and merge, isn't passing civilly the established norm anyways? Just do it with safety, courtesy, and speed. Neglect one of those elements and a good tongue-lashing may be in order!

J Q wrote: I see it completely opposite.....

+1

I've noticed that a lot of beginning climbers have a mentality that as soon as they have led say a single pitch of 5.8 that they are ready to go jump on the mega classic 5.8 that is always packed. You don't need to be a 5.10 leader to get on a popular 5.8, but I don't think it's unreasonable that you be comfortable on sighting at that grade or can possibly pull through the crux on gear if needed, can manage a belay, and not have to build impromptu anchors midway between all the established belays.

According to Long duk. Beginner is synonymous with generosity. Beginners are "not greedy". Wtf? If youre greedy you're greedy. Beginner has nothing to do with it.

And according to dong it makes sense to call JQ an idiot. Dong- go to your room! You're grounded.

As one who favors long moderate multi-pitch and generally speaking ...

I believe if a party got to a climb early enough to be ahead of others, they've earned their position on the route. Following parties can "ask" to pass. But, generally speaking, that earlier party is not obligated to let parties pass and so increase their odds of getting dropped upon (i.e., rocks, gear, etc.).

In this case, the person okay'd being passed. At the same time, the pass-er knew the pass-ee was uncomfortable with it. Seems a small price to spend time insuring all's cool with everyone before passing - or just wait and ponder whether next time to get on a crowded route in the first place.

Most agree that getting to a route first entitles you to start first. However, I argue that it is no guarantee that you get to finish first.

Any analogy breaks down after a while ...

"twisty high alpine Colorado road"

... likely all have their no passing zones ... and some sections of single-lane for both directions.

Is the Bastille Crack 4' off the road or is it 5'? I'm just trying to set the stage for the epic nature gnar.

If you stretch the rope, it's what, 230', fun to call 400'.

It's been climbed in something like 5 minutes.

It's probably been done by a team dressed like the Village People while a dude in a gorilla costume cussed because they were taking too long.

I've seen handrails at Disneyland with less polish.

I see two issues.

First, after one time, why would you want to climb the Bastille again? Maybe to access other routes sure, but that wasn't the case today.

Second, it's the Bastille Crack, your self righteous grand nature trad hard gold-line vision of wool knickers isn't here. It's a vertical sidewalk. The biggest danger is contracting warts from climbing it. There are probably 3 parties on it right now, two waiting, and 7 dudes and 1 girl in Boulder county planning to climb it naked this month.

To summarize, Birdman did nothing wrong other than leave his assless chaps in the car.

The other party can either climb further than 5' from the road or put another cupcake in their mouths.

And just by typing the above sentence, someone is now probably planning a picnic with a disco ball halfway up.

To answer the question about why someone who has done the Bastille so often would do it again, my partner was in from out of town and wanted to do it. If it was up to me, I would have opted for something else.

Birdman...you have assless chaps?

Or chapped ass.

All chaps are assless, they're designed to be worn over pants to give extra protection to the legs while horseback riding.

Thanks captain obvious. Were running with the thread here. But you are correct.