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Quickdraws stolen off overboard at Smith

Sergey Shelukhin · · Seattle, WA · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 14

Not taking either side, the FA style definition is maybe more useful for a small group in an area where everyone knows everyone and most of the routes. The protection definition is maybe more useful for larger climbing community... It's not very helpful for anyone not familiar with area and first ascenders to know whether route is GU or TD (terms that ORG guidebook uses), which is probably why MP uses the definitions that it uses (see post above)

runout · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 30
Christian wrote:Here's what would happen when you fell toproping a truly steep sport route, in case the 5.9-climbing-it's-OK-to-steal-people's-project-draws douchebags were wondering. Also picture yourself trying to clean such a route.
Don't you just clip a quickdraw to the belayer's line and clean while lowering? It's a PITA for sure, but it can be done.

So what's the alternative? You climb it once and then kiss your draws goodbye? Don't climb it because it's not prehung for you?

Also, most sport routes at Smith are not that overhung. Difficult to clean does not apply to this particular case.
budman · · Moab,UT · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 11

Yo! 6 pages all because someone was to lazy to pickup their toys before going home. And the hits just keep on coming. Clean the route when your done no matter how hard or beware there are people not as nice as most.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
AJ Leiden wrote: I can't quite see how this is within guideline #1.
Since when is telling it like how it is a violation of guideline #1? Is "novice" a dirty word now?
AJ Leiden wrote:Dylan has been on mp since 2006, and presuming he's climbed at least since that time, that is still nearly a decade of experience.
And it's a perfect example of "# of years since started climbing" not being a good indicator of experience. Someone can literally gain more climbing experience in 6 months of time. A word of advise: if you confine climbing only to DL, you'll likely never move out of the novice phase.
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
AJ Leiden wrote: I can't quite see how this is within guideline #1. Dylan has been on mp since 2006, and presuming he's climbed at least since that time, that is still nearly a decade of experience. While many of you may significantly outweigh that amount with lifetimes of climbing, how is calling him a "relative novice" supposed to make someone like me, having climbed for 2 1/2 years and much more fitting of the title "relative novice", feel?
Some people have 9 years of experience. Some people repeat 1 year of experience nine times.

It is entirely possible to have a lot of years experience in one area and still be a complete nOOb in others. That is why we have trad climbers who do no sport climbing waxing on about "pink pointing"...sport climbers who do not plug gear bitching about how the unsafe runout should just be bolted...everyone claiming how easy aid climbing must be since you're just hanging on gear...and ice climbers, don't even get me started about them.
Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
Tim Lutz wrote:failing to realize that one person's style doesn't own the rock.... is also an ethical issue
well to that I would say nut up or shut up.
Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

5.9/5.10 climbers really have no skin in the game when it comes to project draws or permadraws. Not only that, at least some of them probably resent the fact that the people who use permadraws climb better than them. As far as I'm concerned, giving their opinion equal weight would be like accepting a heads-you-win, tails-I-lose wager on a coin toss.

All that being said, this isn't a logic puzzle, it's a power struggle, like millions of others that happen in society. If you're a moderate climber that's serious about becoming better, I suggest that, instead of bitching and moaning about what the better climbers do, you befriend them and learn from them. Instead of trying to beat them (which you won't anyway, better climbers will always have more power in the climbing community), join them.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Jake Jones wrote: Everything, let me repeat: EVERYTHING at Stone Mtn NC is a trad climb. Everything there was bolted on lead, ground up. .
If I remember right, Scimitar was rap bolted.
Chris Rice · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 55

There are " projects" and "projects". The old definition was a route that had not been climbed yet (finished) by the original route developers (or anyone else for that matter) - is was a "new" route. The new definition seems to be any route "you" can't climb yet and want to leave gear on to make life easier the next time you visit. Which shouldn't be a big deal if you leave at dark and come back early the next morning - but leaving your gear on an established and popular route for any length of time and expecting it to still be there is expecting a lot from people.

Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433

Chris Rice who the hell do you think you are trying to get this thread back on track? I've never seen so many distinctly individual and yet simultaneous arguments in a thread before, this is glorious. And yet all it needs now are some racism and political spinoffs!

But yeah, I just think people should understand that the opinion chris just stated exists. And now I am aware that the opinions and culture such is what sounds like is going on at smith rock exists.

And as for whoever A.J. was arguing with, the word is elitism, we could all do without it

Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954

The Trad* Climbers' Guide to Booty on Sport Climbs

Is it Booty or should you Just Leave it Be? Ten simple guidelines to help you figure out how to do the right thing.

(*)And other beginners, ethics policemen, and would-be thieves.

1) New draws on every bolt? This is someone's project. Just leave it be.

2) New draws on every bolt but the first one or two? This is someone's project. Just leave it be.

3) Old draws in decent condition on every bolt or every bolt but the first one or two? This route is fixed for the benefit of everyone. Just leave it be.

4) A single new draw on a (crux) bolt? Someone bailed. Booty.

5) A single old draw in decent condition on a crux bolt? This draw is fixed for the benefit of everyone. Just leave it be.

6) A single old draw in decent condition on steeply overhanging or traversing terrain? This draw is fixed for the benefit of everyone. Just leave it be.

7) A single carabiner on a bolt? Except in the case of (6), someone bailed. Booty.

8) Two single carabiners at the anchor? This is part of the anchor. Just leave it be.

9) Two single carabiners at the anchor in bad or dangerous condition? These are part of the anchor but have exceeded their useful lifespan. Booty... Sort of: Replace if possible.

10) Old draws in bad or dangerous condition on one or more bolts? These draws are fixed for the benefit of everyone but have exceeded their useful lifespan. Booty... Sort of: Only the bad ones and they should be replaced if possible. Any remaining draws should be reallocated to the highest bolts on the route (leaving the lowest bolts vacant) so future climbers don't head up the route unprepared without draws.

It's quite simple really: think "The Golden Rule". Access-challenged areas notwithstanding. This message is brought to you by your fellow climber brethren. Enjoy and Happy climbing!

SethG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 291

This thread makes me embarrassed for trad climbers everywhere. I have very little sport climbing experience but even I understand the difference between "booty" and project draws. Please everyone, give it a rest.

Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061
SethG wrote:This thread makes me embarrassed for trad climbers everywhere. I have very little sport climbing experience but even I understand the difference between "booty" and project draws. Please everyone, give it a rest.
Easy there hotrod, some of the most vocal and knowledgeable people on this thread, supporting the project draw stance are...gasp, trad climbers. If you are going to be embarrassed for someone, it should be for the millennial know-nothings who can't bear to acknowledge when they are wrong.
SethG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 291
Will S wrote: Easy there hotrod, some of the most vocal and knowledgeable people on this thread, supporting the project draw stance are...gasp, trad climbers. If you are going to be embarrassed for someone, it should be for the millennial know-nothings who can't bear to acknowledge when they are wrong.
Fair enough.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Josh Janes wrote: 7) A single carabiner on a bolt? Someone bailed. Booty.
Careful w/ 7), it may be left deliberately for the benefit of cleaning an overhung sport route, especially if left below a roof section

Thing is, bootying a trad route can be a (climbing) community service, especially stuck gear, whereas bootying a sport route rarely is.
zekem · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 70

Real simple concept:

IF IT DOESNT BELONG TO YOU, THEN DONT TAKE IT

Feel free to implement that into your daily lives. It's a good general rule to live by if you don't want to be perceived as a thief. If you don't take things that aren't yours you don't have to worry about why it's there. Didn't know honesty was such a difficult concept to grasp......

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
gription wrote: well to that I would say nut up or shut up.
you tell 'em hardman! bwaaaahhhaaahhaha....

i think josh janes' list is pretty solid to go by, and reboot's additions are good also.
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Matthew D. Black wrote: If it is in my ability, I like to red point climbs instead of pink point them. nuff said.
For some more great discussion on this amazing thread, There is no such thing as a "pink point" in sport climbing. Let's see how far this thread goes now!
Ryan Palo · · Bend, oregon · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 605

Solid understanding going on here.

Interesting.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Ryan Palo wrote:Solid understanding going on here.
Great find, that post makes a lot more sense now!
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Pacific Northwest
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