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Re-organizing France climbing

Original Post
Rui Ferreira · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 903

Is it possible to re-organize the areas/routes in France to separate rock routes from snow/ice/mixed?

This is already done for Colorado by having a separate Snow/Ice/Mixed category and makes it much easier to find information.

It would also be nice to have consensus on how to structure the French climbing areas, at the moment "Vallee Blanche" is one area, but there is another area titled "Chamonix Valley & Aiguilles Rouges" and these two areas overlap with at least one route entered in both areas (with different info in each entry).

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Rui Ferreira wrote:Is it possible to re-organize the areas/routes in France to separate rock routes from snow/ice/mixed? This is already done for Colorado by having a separate Snow/Ice/Mixed category and makes it much easier to find information. It would also be nice to have consensus on how to structure the French climbing areas, at the moment "Vallee Blanche" is one area, but there is another area titled "Chamonix Valley & Aiguilles Rouges" and these two areas overlap with at least one route entered in both areas (with different info in each entry).
If I knew enough about France, I'd volunteer to do it, but I don't, so I'll just express my support of Rui's suggestion instead.
Rui Ferreira · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 903

I have the information so I am willing to help up any administrator that is able to do the back end work, but it would also be nice to get input from other users with experience climbing in France besides Chamonix and Ceuse...

Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506

Yup, reorganizing by region would be nice too, I had started to figure out what should go where but didn't go beyond that.

Rui Ferreira · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 903
Luc wrote:Yup, reorganizing by region would be nice too, I had started to figure out what should go where but didn't go beyond that.
organizing by Departments would be nice as this is how things are segmented in France: Haute Savoie, Savoie, Isere, Hautes Alpes, Alpes du Sud, etc.

and then breaking each department by mountain ranges, for example Isere: Belledonne, Chartreuse, Vercors, Grande Rousses, Taillefer, etc.

For the Mont Blanc range given its size and quantity of routes it could be sub-segmented by valley basins: Vallee Blanche, Miage, Brenva, etc.
Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506

You can suggest re-organizing France to Euan Cameron, I didn't pursue it because I don't know the areas enough and I'd probably make a bunch of mistakes.
There's a lot of info that needs to be collected before starting like writing up all the info for the areas, then creating a temporary "to sort area", creating all the sub-areas and moving the crags into those.
I'm just short on time to research and write up the Regions (using the 22 regions or the new 13 regions?)

fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%…

JPVallone · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 195

I left Colorado to live in France. Honestly there are many good sites in France, so just use the sites that are local to their regions. Most of the information on MP for France I have found to be quite useless.

Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506

I noticed that last summer, byt the information on MP still needs to be correct and sorted.

Rui Ferreira · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 903
JPVallone wrote:I left Colorado to live in France. Honestly there are many good sites in France, so just use the sites that are local to their regions. Most of the information on MP for France I have found to be quite useless.
Not so, most MP users are not familiar with camptocamp and similar French sites or do not want to deal with the sparse translations. Current MP route may be useless by someone who lives or has lived in France, but that is not the general user profile of MP users and those seeking route or trip information who come to the website. I do not see this being any different from French randonneurs posting their North American trip reports on skitour.fr

Improving the current MP country structure and adding more routes would improve the situation. I have not added any ice/mixed/snow routes because at the moment there is no separation from rock routes and then there are areas such as Oisans and Allefroide, without routes and another separate area for Massif des Ecrins with the regular route to the Dome. So where should I add ice routes on Pelvoux, etc.?
Rui Ferreira · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 903
Luc wrote:You can suggest re-organizing France to Euan Cameron, I didn't pursue it because I don't know the areas enough and I'd probably make a bunch of mistakes. There's a lot of info that needs to be collected before starting like writing up all the info for the areas, then creating a temporary "to sort area", creating all the sub-areas and moving the crags into those. I'm just short on time to research and write up the Regions (using the 22 regions or the new 13 regions?) fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%…
I have sent page improvement comments to the respective administrators but did not get a response, which is why I posted on the forum.

The regions are changing/consolidating names as of 2016, but the departments within the metropolitan areas will remain intact (all 96). Too much pride in Savoie and Haute-Savoie to abandon those names. Given that most of the popular climbing with international climbers and potential MP users is concentrated to a few departments, I think it is a practical approach to categorizing the climbing areas.
JPVallone · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 195

Well Rui, I actually live in La Grave, I have for 13 winters and now going on my 6th full year as a full time resident. So yeah you mentioned two incredible places such as Allfroide and the Ecrin Massif as a whole.

As you know there are amazing guide books available to these areas such as Sebs which is also available in English, not to mention the Allfroide guidebook if you just want it for Allfroide is pretty cheap, in color, and can be found anywhere. Yeah, it's in French, but it's a guidebook, It will add some adventure to your day if you can't read it, but still will be more valuable then the random write ups and information seen on this site.

Plus you are doing something that gives back and supports. When you buy guide books in France you not only support the author, but you support the crags and areas in which you will be climbing. Yes proceeds from the book you just bought benefits you directly if you climb in that area. In France there is no such thing as discounts on guidebooks and most climbers and guides know this and are ethically ok with it and are happy to buy the books. Proceeds go to the hardware replacement, and upkeep in the areas you will be using.

Basically don't be a dirtbag douche if you go to France. Instead buy a fricking book so you can help support the countless hours of work , and expensive hardware that your local Bereau is most likely managing for you to enjoy.

I also wouldn't ever worry about the Ecrin area. Nobody wants to climb in that region anyway, It's not the Haute-Savoie and there is no Mt. BIanco in that area, just this little boring peak that barely makes it over 4000m called the Barre de Something, and then there is that other pointy peak above the village in La Grave called La mr. MIage or something like that, but it too is a waste of time, it doesn't even hit 4000m, so why bother. That would be like climbing Mt. Meeker instead of Long's, It's not a 14er so whats the point?

I will add that all the Ecrin, and the Allfroide areas are nothing but choss. Chamonix is where it's at and not just for climbing, for skiing too. Just ask most anyone that visits France from the states for either climbing or skiing, They go straight to Chamonix and have no idea what the Ecrin is or where. That is because the Ecrin's is a giant pile. Or if they do know, they never get around to it, and that is because there are so many better places to climb in Europe then in the Ecrin.

All Joking aside, It would take full time administrators that know what is up in the Alps to build these regions and actually give it some credibility. I think you would have to pay some credible people some coin for all there data entries.

But honestly, who cares in the end, Just buy the damn guide book if your going somewhere. . If you don't it's kind of like stealing music on the internet. You do get what you pay for if you enjoy having the routes equipped for you.

My 2 cents.

I do agree with you as well, that routes need to be separated by Snow/Mixed/Ice if you are going to attempt to take on France or anything in the European Alps

Rui Ferreira · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 903
JPVallone wrote: Basically don't be a dirtbag douche if you go to France. My 2 cents.
Well, I do not presume to make any statements on your character or other MP users that are using the website for information.

I have lived in France, I continue to climb and ski in France on a regular basis and have friends come to me for route information and general guidance on where to climb in France, so I do see the benefits of posting area and route information on MP.

I own over 20 guidebooks and IGN maps to France but still find myself using camptocamp.org and skitour.fr on a regular basis and yes, I do hire local climbing and ski guides depending on the situation...far from your perception of a "dirtbag douche".
James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
JPVallone wrote:Well Rui, I actually live in La Grave, I have for 13 winters and now going on my 6th full year as a full time resident. So yeah you mentioned two incredible places such as Allfroide and the Ecrin Massif as a whole. As you know there are amazing guide books available to these areas such as Sebs which is also available in English, not to mention the Allfroide guidebook if you just want it for Allfroide is pretty cheap, in color, and can be found anywhere. Yeah, it's in French, but it's a guidebook, It will add some adventure to your day if you can't read it, but still will be more valuable then the random write ups and information seen on this site. Plus you are doing something that gives back and supports. When you buy guide books in France you not only support the author, but you support the crags and areas in which you will be climbing. Yes proceeds from the book you just bought benefits you directly if you climb in that area. In France there is no such thing as discounts on guidebooks and most climbers and guides know this and are ethically ok with it and are happy to buy the books. Proceeds go to the hardware replacement, and upkeep in the areas you will be using. Basically don't be a dirtbag douche if you go to France. Instead buy a fricking book so you can help support the countless hours of work , and expensive hardware that your local Bereau is most likely managing for you to enjoy. I also wouldn't ever worry about the Ecrin area. Nobody wants to climb in that region anyway, It's not the Haute-Savoie and there is no Mt. BIanco in that area, just this little boring peak that barely makes it over 4000m called the Barre de Something, and then there is that other pointy peak above the village in La Grave called La mr. MIage or something like that, but it too is a waste of time, it doesn't even hit 4000m, so why bother. That would be like climbing Mt. Meeker instead of Long's, It's not a 14er so whats the point? I will add that all the Ecrin, and the Allfroide areas are nothing but choss. Chamonix is where it's at and not just for climbing, for skiing too. Just ask most anyone that visits France from the states for either climbing or skiing, They go straight to Chamonix and have no idea what the Ecrin is or where. That is because the Ecrin's is a giant pile. Or if they do know, they never get around to it, and that is because there are so many better places to climb in Europe then in the Ecrin. All Joking aside, It would take full time administrators that know what is up in the Alps to build these regions and actually give it some credibility. I think you would have to pay some credible people some coin for all there data entries. But honestly, who cares in the end, Just buy the damn guide book if your going somewhere. . If you don't it's kind of like stealing music on the internet. You do get what you pay for if you enjoy having the routes equipped for you. My 2 cents. I do agree with you as well, that routes need to be separated by Snow/Mixed/Ice if you are going to attempt to take on France or anything in the European Alps
If you feel this way, then why are you on MP?

Is it possible that seeing some of the highlights to different areas on MP might spur some folks to purchase more in-depth guides to those areas? Thereby actually increasing sales.

I don't think anyone is looking for a free ride, just that the information be well-organized. It seems like Rui is into the idea of doing that without being "[paid] some coin" - although maybe you don't think he's "credible".

And for the love of god:

Grammar
JPVallone · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 195

@James M Schroeder

Haha James, I only use MP to get Grammar Nazi's all bent up. I did quite well in College, Straight A's and B's across the board except one D on my whole transcript, Creative writing. I never was good at writing, reading, spelling or grammar, and you know what, I don't give a PHACK! I know a little about a lot, and not a lot about a little. Ooops, I used a lot. Is that O.K.??? Basically I know my grammar is worthless, and I really don't care, nor do I have time to care. Can't be good at everything. However what I do find quite annoying in our world is people that are annoyed at other people that aren't as good as things that they are better at, but that person needs to let you know and give you unsoliscited lessons and advice. (oops, can't spell that word, it's too big for me, and I don't have time for spellcheck) Are you one of those guys at the crags that shouts unsolicited beta all day to folks on routes you have done?

I am sure I can school you on many subjects but that is not why I come to MP. I don't use route info or beta on this site, I only come to read the forums, some of the sponsor headlines for climbing news, occasionally to sell stuff and to troll forums in search of people who can help me with my grammar.

Rui, I was not saying you are a dirt bag douche. Great your buying the books, Great you use skitour.fr and camptocamp.org. Great you give information to all that need it as do I even though it is mostly what I make a living doing, I offer it up anyway to those in need. Great you use guides, You keep me employed, great your not a dirtball, Douche, never said or assumed you were. I really don't use MP for climbing beta or information, and even in France I don't use Skitour or CamptoCamp. I like the adventure and I like the unknown a bit, but internet can be good for research for sure, I can understand how some folks rely on MP beta and would be lost without it, but too each their own. (Oh Shit, did I use the write, (right) there, or is it they're, Damn, I did it again.

Sounds like people need to have a database in France in order to improve the MP experience here so maybe it's time to start the project. Go for it and good on you for donating all your free time to do it for the people.

a picture for James M Schroeder

Rui Ferreira · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 903

Getting back to my original suggestion if I were to enter a new Snow/Ice/Mixed category for France and populate it with respective areas and routes, is it possible for the MP administrator to reallocate the existing route/area entries under the new Snow/Ice/Mixed heading? In particular the page for Goûter Route on Mont Blanc and the Barre des écrins page under the Massif des Ecrins area?

Nick Wilder · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2005 · Points: 4,098

I can help out, and if any experienced contributors want to become an admin, we could do that too.

Rui Ferreira · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 903

is there a way to change the chart with the recommended Climbing Season as it is different for alpine versus rock routes?

Nick Wilder · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2005 · Points: 4,098
Rui Ferreira wrote:is there a way to change the chart with the recommended Climbing Season as it is different for alpine versus rock routes?
No, but as we get more data (ticks) for each climbing area, it will get better automatically.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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