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How to tell a sport route from a bolted trad route (?)

Original Post
Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

So after the whole runaway 'stolen draws thread', I'm left unsure of what I previously thought I knew. So can anyone enlighten me as to how to tell whether a bolted route is asport route or a bolted trad route, please?

Jason Kim · · Encinitas, CA · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 255

When I finish the climb and find a little poop in my underwear, I know it's a bolted trad climb.

Eric Chabot · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 45

Brownpoint

Derrick W · · Golden, CO · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 868

If you could aid up it with a set of quickdraws and a pair of aiders, it's a sport route.

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
Derrick W wrote:If you could aid up it with a set of quickdraws and a pair of aiders, it's a sport route.
I was going to say that if a stick clip could be used to steal all the fixed draws it's sport route. But that's sarcasm. A lot of things need to be taken into account. Just because it's run out doesn't mean its trad.
mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885
Mathias wrote:So after the whole runaway 'stolen draws thread', I'm left unsure of what I previously thought I knew. So can anyone enlighten me as to how to tell whether a bolted route is asport route or a bolted trad route, please?
Usually, the risk factor dictates whether one calls is a sport route vs "other". Simply put, the bolts need to be close enough together to mitigate, for the most part, risks involved with falling while lead climbing. During the early years of "sport climbing", those distances could be pretty far apart by modern standards and over the years, the bolts have grown closer together. The distance between bolts will also vary by region as well. "Gym Tight" bolting might dominate one area while another might lean towards more spacing for various reasons. Areas like the Verdon or Ratikon are far more spicy
Muscrat · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 3,625

From MP new route description:
Sport - most people lead with just quickdraws.
Trad - most people use some trad gear. There may also be bolts as well.
Other - boulder problem, TR (but not trad or sport), snow route, etc.
Toprope - you can set up a TR without leading the route.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Mathias wrote:So after the whole runaway 'stolen draws thread', I'm left unsure of what I previously thought I knew. So can anyone enlighten me as to how to tell whether a bolted route is asport route or a bolted trad route, please?
Trad = Bolted on lead from stances
Sport = Bolted using some form of aid

Trad = Generally runout and scary due to the difficulty in bolting on lead
Sport = Generally bolted with the safety of the climber in mind

Obviously there are never any absolutes in anything, and you can't always tell if a route is a sport or a trad route just by climbing it, but the above are generalized rules. Traditional climbing involves starting on the ground and making your way up the rock placing protection along the way for the first ascent. Sport climbing involves pre-placing the gear prior to doing the first ascent. This is the heart of what differentiates the two.
Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
mattm wrote: ...those distances could be pretty far apart by modern standards and over the years, the bolts have grown closer together.
I suspect that this has more to do with style ethics. If the crag goes in ground up you get the bolts were you can. If the climb goes in top down you get the bolts where they are needed.
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
gription wrote: I was going to say that if a stick clip could be used to steal all the fixed draws it's sport route. But that's sarcasm. Alot of things need to be taken into account. Just because it's run out doesn't mean its trad.
It could just be north carolina climbing... normally first bolt is 25-30ft up the next around 60 and the last at 100ft.
Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
ViperScale wrote: It could just be north carolina climbing... normally first bolt is 25-30ft up the next around 60 and the last at 100ft.
Thats what I call "Sporty"
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

Our climbing style is pretty much you must be able to deck from the clip, anything closer is aid climbing /nod

nbrown · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 7,718

I'll take the bait since this is an question that actually comes up quite often with many of the climbers I know nowadays. When I started climbing in the late 80's in NC, I'd never heard of either term - climbing was just climbing. But we were sheltered from the sport climbing rage at the time - it came later in the 90's (I think).

However, to many (especially of the older generations) the difference mainly lies in the approach that was taken in establishing a route.

Real "Trad" routes are climbed from bottom to top in a traditional manner that makes sense when climbing something big. The result of a traditional approach is oftentimes the fact that gear is not always ideal, or at least ideally located (when talking bolts, etc.). Anyone who has ever contemplated stopping to hand drill a bolt versus just going for it and climbing through understands this well. Fortunately, nowadays, many folks I know will actually go back and (immediately) add a bolt to a dangerous section that (they just put up) and that should have had one; there is plenty of way-dangerous shit in my neck of the woods that no one ever climbs for that very reason, and I think many modern FA parties have realized that.

Things get fuzzy when the traditional approach is applied to smaller walls (especially single pitch) that could have been easily pre-rehearsed, cleaned, etc., and may very well have been. Sometimes a trad route ain't so trad afterall, despite the "trad" gear used to protect it.

Sport climbs, on the other hand, are "designed" before they are climbed and should therefore be relatively well thought out and reasonably safe.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65

This 2009 article in Alpinist #26 by John Bachar recounting the FA of the Bachar-Yerian might help inform:

alpinist.com/doc/ALP26/firs…

Alex Bury · · Ojai, CA · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 2,376

Its hot as hell here, and Im stuck in the ac...so here we go.
All the above definitions have merit. Back in the day it was all about the style of the first ascent (such it is written upon the holy pages of yore). Today, route developers are increasingly concerned with the experience of those that follow. And it is now not uncommon to have trad routes developed top-down and sport climbs to be done ground-up, so using the style of the FA to define the route does not always work.
My 2¢...route developers can provide an easy solution to this dillema. When reporting a new route, especially on mountain project, explain the style of the first ascent but list the route in the manner others will experience it.

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
Mathias wrote:So can anyone enlighten me as to how to tell whether a bolted route is asport route or a bolted trad route, please?
I would think if you could look up and understand that the bolt spread might keep you from a long fall and/or getting hurt (or minimizing the chance of getting hurt) if you fell, then its a sport route.

If there are gaps as runouts between bolt placements, especially if you can see features like cracks which easily take gear, then, its a mixed trad route.

If their aren't runouts in the bolt spread even when gear options are available, then its a sports route.

Really doesn't matter what style the route is put up in (ground up or top down). Its the end product and the in situ protection that determines whether its a sport or trad route, IMHO.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665

If you need to place gear where gear is available, and falling would be a bad idea as opposed to routine, that's probably not a sport route.
I dunno if it is a trad route, but it's not a sport route.

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241

Whether you have a nut tool on your harness or not.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
Muscrat wrote:From MP new route description: Sport - most people lead with just quickdraws. Trad - most people use some trad gear. There may also be bolts as well. Other - boulder problem, TR (but not trad or sport), snow route, etc. Toprope - you can set up a TR without leading the route.
That is only in the context of making MP route entries, where it needs to be clear cut to fit in a form and the emphasis is on letting you know what gear to bring.
Tronald Dump · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10

Look at the bolting, if "Yer Gonna Die" or leave a 100ft red streak on the rock if you slip, its trad. If you gonna fall 20ft, airborne and land comfortably on yer rope, its sport.

Ashort · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 56
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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