Quickdraws stolen off overboard at Smith

The whole concept of sport climbing was to eliminate the danger so you could focus solely on the movement/difficulty.

There are shitloads of bolt-protected trad climbing in Joshua Tree. They aren't sport climbs by any stretch. Ground fall potential in some of them, giant runnouts in many of them, and "fall and get hurt" in many of them.

People still occasionally bolt sport routes ground-up, but because the terrain requires it. Some roofy and super steep things can be easier to bolt on lead from hooks than on rap (otherwise you end up with a lot of unnecessary or impossible to clip extra bolts).

Dylan B. wrote: I would say yes; it's a very run-out sport climb. And I hated it.

#1 that climb is awesome.
#2 it is not a sport climb. "very run out" sport climb is an oxymoron. Virtually any other climber you ask will tell you that GWW is not a sport climb.

Dylan,

The Great White Way is not a sport climb. Ask around. It's just not.

John Byrnes definition "bolted such that it is safe to fall" is an excellent, concise, accurate definition of sport climbing.

All this talk of TRonsights is good for a chuckle - even mildly steep sport routes are much easier to lead than to toprope.

An example for you, Dylan - Devil in the White House, Arms Control, Overhanging Hangover - they are all easier to lead than toprope.

Dylan B. wrote: Is that an admission that you don't know Guideline #1?

It's a clarification. Because most people, after realizing they don't know what they are talking about, choose to stop talking.

Will S wrote:The whole concept of sport climbing was to eliminate the danger so you could focus solely on the movement/difficulty. There are shitloads of bolt-protected trad climbing in Joshua Tree. They aren't sport climbs by any stretch. Ground fall potential in some of them, giant runnouts in many of them, and "fall and get hurt" in many of them. People still occasionally bolt sport routes ground-up, but because the terrain requires it. Some roofy and super steep things can be easier to bolt on lead from hooks than on rap (otherwise you end up with a lot of unnecessary or impossible to clip extra bolts).

Hey look, someone who knows what they are talking about...

I wish someone would summarize this in a concise synopsis so we could see the drift...stolen draws through arguing the definition of trad climb? Only on MP!

Dylan B. wrote: And most people stop saying, "nah nah I told you so," when they graduate from kindergarten. Meanwhile, I continue to use the term "sport climb," as do many (perhaps even the majority) climbers, to refer to climbs that are protected exclusively (or almost exclusively) by bolts, whether rap bolted or not. You can call that "wrong" all you like, but that's the wonderful thing about language: it's flexible and contextual. MP is cutting me off, so this is my last post for the day.

You should definitely post a poll up on the CCC website and ask if GWW is a sport climb. Should be good for some laughs.

Dylan B. wrote: Toproping doesn't "detract from the intent of sport climbing"? You mean my TRonsight is the same as your onsight, and more impressive than your red point? Being on the sharp end is not part of the "intent" or sport climbing? Maybe for you, but I've never heard anyone else take that position. Yeah, that's why I said "assuming it was properly bolted on lead."

First of all, sport climbing is about climbing a rock face on lead... Actually placing gear as part of the lead is a trad mentality, and a view otherwise is rare as far as I've seen.
Do you have any clue how many sport routes are done Ground Up? Hardly any... And I don't know of a single moderate to hard sport route fa'd in the past few years that was fa'd with draws placed on lead. They are almost all done project style. Smith Rock sport routes are almost all exclusively done top down and fa'd with draws hanging. And that's the norm at pretty much any sport crag.

Language is certainly flexible and contextual. In this context, however, you're just wrong. Knowing other people whom are also wrong does not make you right.

Referring so bolt-protected trad climbs which were put up on lead as sport climbs has been incorrect nomenclature since at least the 90s. You (and your friends) are a few decades behind the curve.

If you post a new route on MP you are given the choice of :
Sport - most people lead with just quickdraws.
Trad - most people use some trad gear. There may also be bolts as well.
Other - boulder problem, TR (but not trad or sport), snow route, etc.
Toprope - you can set up a TR without leading the route.

SO the site on which we debate this never ending jawfest answers the q?
Or not.

frankstoneline wrote: I simply pointed out that to argue that the logical end point is for there to be fixed draws on every sport climb is to employ a common logical fallacy, many areas reserve long term fixed gear only for routes that are difficult to clean, etc. Again, practices vary from place to place.

Some slippery slope arguments are fallacies , mpech's wasn't. Extreme argument that may not (probably won't) play out, maybe so...

I hate to involve myself if these debates, but the ethic is the area(area being the main park area) is for fixed. Overboard, Magic Light, and really everything else on that wall could use fixed steel regardless of grade. It's far from unusual to see draws left on the lower portion of the route. Reason being, it helps move the crowds along. It's not uncommon to see lines 5-6 parties deep attempting to get on either ML or OB. Also it's not uncommon to see 2 or even 3 people climbing the same route at the same time(1 finishing on tr and 2 staggered leaders) in this area. Unusual yes, but accepted practice by those who spend the most time there.

Anyhow, what did your gear look like? I'll keep an eye out for someone with that description and that gear.

Micah Klesick wrote: ...Do you have any clue how many sport routes are done Ground Up? Hardly any... And I don't know of a single moderate to hard sport route fa'd in the past few years that was fa'd with draws placed on lead..

Uhm youd be surprised then. Look at Owens River Gorge, Pine Creek, and most other Eastside Sport Climbing Areas and you will see that traditional ethics are alive and well in California. I have participated in the installation of over 350 bolts in the last three years. One was hung from a hook, and four were top down. On the route with four top down bolts the first two were were placed on lead and the four were only placed on rap after it was determined to be impossible to place them on lead. So to say that Harldy any routes are placed in traditional style is ignorant of the facts. WHile I will agree that the new generation seems to have way less concern with style and ethics I will also state that there're still plenty of style Nazis out there.

Dylan B. wrote: Meanwhile, I continue to use the term "sport climb," as do many (perhaps even the majority) climbers, to refer to climbs that are protected exclusively (or almost exclusively) by bolts, whether rap bolted or not. You can call that "wrong" all you like, but that's the wonderful thing about language: it's flexible and contextual.

I don't mind thread drift at all, but this attitude irks me.

A relative novice, especially wrt sport climbing misuses a term, is corrected by multiple experienced climbers (kennoyce, reboot, sproul, will s, ad infinitum) but insists on continuing to follow the mistaken practices of his equally unaware buddies.

I mean, what's rockclimbing.com/ for anyway???

gription wrote: One was hung from a hook

Which was once against the established ethics as well. You had to drill from a stance, not hanging from a piece of gear. I believe Tony Yaniro's Scirocco generated a lot of controversy at the time for being drilled off of hooks.

reboot wrote: Which was once against the established ethics as well. You had to drill from a stance, not hanging from a piece of gear. I believe Tony Yaniro's Scirocco generated a lot of controversy at the time for being drilled off of hooks.

we established the crag, we established the ethics

gription wrote: Uhm youd be surprised then. Look at Owens River Gorge, Pine Creek, and most other Eastside Sport Climbing Areas and you will see that traditional ethics are alive and well in California. I have participated in the installation of over 350 bolts in the last three years. One was hung from a hook, and four were top down. On the route with four top down bolts the first two were were placed on lead and the four were only placed on rap after it was determined to be impossible to place them on lead. So to say that Harldy any routes are placed in traditional style is ignorant of the facts. WHile I will agree that the new generation seems to have way less concern with style and ethics I will also state that there're still plenty of style Nazis out there.

That's pretty cool, but don't you think you're still in the minority as far as establishing sport routes?

Mark E Dixon wrote: That's pretty cool, but don't you think you're still in the minority as far as establishing sport routes?

Sierra Eastside...no not yet I don't

gription wrote: we established the crag, we established the ethics

Ethics has nothing to do with it. You are talking about style.
Did you kill or hurt someone? Steal? Lie or cheat? If no, then why do you insist on injecting the term "ethics" into a discussion that is solely about choice of style. People often do it, but to be blunt, it's ignorant. There is nothing ethical or unethical about whatever style someone chooses to establish a route.

Will S wrote: Ethics has nothing to do with it. You are talking about style. Did you kill or hurt someone? Steal? Lie or cheat? If no, then why do you insist on injecting the term "ethics" into a discussion that is solely about choice of style. People often do it, but to be blunt, it's ignorant. There is nothing ethical or unethical about whatever style someone chooses to establish a route.

failing to respect style is an ethical issue.