Quickdraws stolen off overboard at Smith

if a car is running in the driveway or left unlocked do you take it?

Couple of news flashes:

1. Not everyone shares the same ethics.

2. Some people steal.

3. If you leave something somewhere it might not be there when you get back.

Is the reward of leaving the draws worth the risk of having them taken. You decide. The debate of right and wrong does not really matter (see #1 - #3 above).

Chris Massey wrote:Couple of news flashes: 1. Not everyone shares the same ethics. 2. Some people steal. 3. If you leave something somewhere it might not be there when you get back. Is the reward of leaving the draws worth the risk of having them taken. You decide. The debae of right and wrong does not really matter (see #1 - #3 above).

This.

Like every thread on this topic no one is going to agree since it's become a trad vs. sport, 5.9 vs. 5.12 debate. The basic tenant is however, if you leave your stuff out it may be gone when you come back.

Personally I don't care about proj draws, surfboards in the sand or whatever, but if you leave it...it may not be there when you come back. Maybe a climber, surfer, skier whatever. You stash your stuff you run the risk, and yes it's stealing. Just like when you go in to get a beer(s) at the ski resort and someone takes your gear. Sucks? Hell yeah, but we all know it's a risk when we go in.

Assholes? Totally.

Again Daniel I'm hoping you get your gear back!!!

news flash lots of people are thiefs, doesnt make it ok to be one!

i think its a 5.8 vs 5.13c debate lol

mpech wrote:IMO, it would be cool if the culture changed and hanging draws on lead was the accepted redpoint style. I think that without this, the number of routes with perma-draws will proliferate. I wouldn't be surprised that within 20 years, top-roping a climb will be considered a valid redpoint.

And so begin the fallacy ridden arguments, we'll start the bidding with one egregious slippery slope justification!

Chris Massey wrote:Couple of news flashes: 1. Not everyone shares the same ethics. 2. Some people steal. 3. If you leave something somewhere it might not be there when you get back. Is the reward of leaving the draws worth the risk of having them taken. You decide. The debate of right and wrong does not really matter (see #1 - #3 above).

+1 I will only leave project draws on 5.12 (or harder) routes. Once you hit the 5.12 range, the amount of people that will access that route seem to drop dramatically, and decrease the chances of a dbag stealing your draws. I also won't leave draws on a 5.12 project that can be accessed by an easier route. Risk vs benefit.

tim naylor wrote:i think it has more to do with experience than anything. i know plenty of 5.9 climbers that know these ethics. If you see a surf board stuck in the sand do you take it home!

For three days....mmm...maybe.

Joke

tim naylor wrote:if a car is running in the driveway or left unlocked do you take it?

Depends on the car.

You can make better connections than these!

tim naylor wrote:news flash lots of people are thiefs, doesnt make it ok to be one!

You are absolutely, 100% correct. But you being right doesn't make the thieves, murders, rapists, drunk drivers or any other type of criminal cease to exist. I find this mentality all over the place: "It's wrong, therefore no one should do it, therefore no one WILL do it, therefore no one will do it to ME."

no just trying to get the point across that it isn't ok. I think the reason more people don't post on here is because it usually goes of topic and turns into a flame war. example, these aren't connections they are analogies.

Mathias wrote: The idea that because of "local ethics" it's safe to leave your gear unattended for days at a time is equally ridiculous. If a route has a full set of draws on it, they were obviously left there for a reason. And if you leave your stuff in a public place, unsecured, you can expect that regardless of laws or local ethics, someone who cares about neither will steal it.

Actually, 99.9% of project and fixed draws are left alone. The rare instances when they are stolen prompt understandable surprise for this reason.

It does seem true that project draws are safer on harder climbs, well away from easy routes and trad routes. My impression, with the occasional exception such as the Smith ginger thief, is that it's other climbers grabbing the draws. Climbers who might be educable.

As for the Trad rules, let me get this straight.

The community you (generic you, not directed at Mathias) advocate says if someone has a bad day and leaves some gear fixed, you are allowed to take that gear and keep it for yourself, even if you know who it belongs to and could return it to them. AND, if you then have a bad day the next day and need to be carried out in a rescue, the same guy who's gear you just booted is supposed to drop everything and pick up the litter?

Nice community!

Really, 99.9%, you know this how?

Why does it matter what the community ethic is. Just use your own common sense.

Mike Brady wrote:Really, 99.9%, you know this how?

I spend a lot of time at crags with fixed draws. Just my estimate. Others are welcome to share theirs.
Maybe it's really just 99.8%.

frankstoneline wrote: And so begin the fallacy ridden arguments, we'll start the bidding with one egregious slippery slope justification!

Here comes the flame!

Frank you said you were going to respond to my argument, but you didnt you just hid behind a mask,1,2,3,4 in hiding.

Then you go on to attack the most sensible argument in here? We don't need to take mpechs exaggerated elaboration as the gospel, that was an analogy meant to come off as the extreme. But his base point stands for itself. Why isn't the culture to redpoint routes placing the draws on lead? And this is not for me to argue, or for me to argue how one projects something. But it must be understood that by leaving your 'project' up, you're impacting how someone else could want to climb that climb.

Go on someone in the room, repeat the useless words of "oh yeah and should there not be bolts?"

Anyway I've stated over and over, that I'm willing to accept that this is a phenomenon that exists, but it doesn't go without it's impact.

mpech wrote:IMO, it would be cool if the culture changed and hanging draws on lead was the accepted redpoint style. I think that without this, the number of routes with perma-draws will proliferate. I wouldn't be surprised that within 20 years, top-roping a climb will be considered a valid redpoint.

Did you put the bolts in on your redpoint too? Who cares about hanging draws.

Mark E Dixon wrote: I spend a lot of time at crags with fixed draws. Just my estimate. Others are welcome to share theirs. Maybe it's really just 99.8%.

Yep, I agree, the percentage is pretty high. I have left project draws plenty of times. I always know that there is a small chance that they will get taken, but I just accept that risk and rely on the fact that it is a very small chance. 1/1000 seems about right to me.

Mark E Dixon wrote: As for the Trad rules, let me get this straight. The community you (generic you, not directed at Mathias) advocate says if someone has a bad day and leaves some gear fixed, you are allowed to take that gear and keep it for yourself, even if you know who it belongs to and could return it to them. AND, if you then have a bad day the next day and need to be carried out in a rescue, the same guy who's gear you just booted is supposed to drop everything and pick up the litter? Nice community!

"Allowed"? No. But it's done and I'd certainly expect that I'd lose my gear if I left it, though I'd make every attempt to retrieve it myself asap. I think most people, knowing who owns the gear, would get it back to them. Not knowing who it belongs to will effect that for most people. The frequency of use for the route or the crag, the condition, disposition and quantity of gear will also have an impact on what the Finder chooses to do. As will their own morals.

I completely understand why leaving gear in trad and leaving gear with project sport routes is different. But there are still people out there who'll take your stuff if they can. Sad but true.

Tom Sherman wrote: Here comes the flame! Frank you said you were going to respond to my argument, but you didnt you just hid behind a mask,1,2,3,4 in hiding. Then you go on to attack the most sensible argument in here? We don't need to take mpechs exaggerated elaboration as the gospel, that was an analogy meant to come off as the extreme. But his base point stands for itself. Why isn't the culture to redpoint routes placing the draws on lead? And this is not for me to argue, or for me to argue how one projects something. But it must be understood that by leaving your 'project' up, you're impacting how someone else could want to climb that climb. Go on someone in the room, repeat the useless words of "oh yeah and should there not be bolts?" Anyway I've stated over and over, that I'm willing to accept that this is a phenomenon that exists, but it doesn't go without it's impact.

The impact of leaving draws hanging is positive for pretty much anyone who climbs hard sport. In sport climbing it is accepted that the protection is fixed, you are there to climb the rock, not worry about fiddling with protection, quickdraws included. The vast majority of sport climbers who walk up to a route with hanging draws think it's great because then they don't have to hang them. It's only the delusional climbers who think that somehow clipping a draw to a bolt is more "pure" than having it already clipped that will be "negatively impacted".

Unfortunately, until you've climbed some difficult routes and understand that on many steep routes cleaning the draws can be nearly as difficult as climbing the route itself and can also be dangerous, you just won't understand the benefit of leaving draws hanging. Obviously this isn't the case for all routes, or even for all routes that have project draws on them, but again, we're talking about sport climbing.

Again, this is SPORT CLIMBING, a quickdraw hanging is no different than a bolt that you didn't place, if you didn't place the pro, then you didn't place the pro. Making clipping a bolt be a part of a "valid redpoint" is just a contrivance.

+1 kennoyce. ( if it makes you feel better hanging your draws on a redpoint just add a letter grade or two to your send.)