Quickdraws stolen off overboard at Smith

Tom Sherman wrote:I don't know anywhere where it's acceptable to just be leaving your shit around

How about any campground or even better, the campgrounds with communal cooking areas where one might leave a few things "in situ" during their visit. While not exactly the same since one won't be using the same tent site, theres' a community respect and honestly that if you leave some camp chairs out, they'll be there when you get back.

Sergey Shelukhin wrote:Tell that to that Italian kid who died due to somebody's bad draws... or to anyone adding a sling to an in-place rappel anchor.

That incident, if you're referring to the well known one, didn't have anything to do with Project Draws or other fixed gear. The accident was due to improperly assembled QuickDraws the climber used.

The vast majority of "Project Draws" are in good shape, primarily because they're a short term thing, perhaps left for a few days as a visiting climber works a goal project. Any climber worth his salt can likely identify "short term project draws".

Where issues arise with Fixed Gear in poor shape is typically at well established, high level sport crags. There you have enough HARD CLIMBS and REGULAR HARD CLIMBERS that Draws become "permanent" as multiple people work the route over and over. It's here where the local community either needs to police it and remove it OR decide to go "Full Steel" and have safe, quality fixed gear.

Personally, I go with the "Blue Steel" feeling it's the best solution in the long run. Sadly, I think many climbers are far too cheap to adopt this setup. In general, climbers monetary priorities are horribly calibrated - They whine about a quality $35 guidebook, Steel Draws or funding bolting maintenance but will trot out all sorts of pricey, superfluous at the crag "looking the part"...

Sergey Shelukhin wrote:Tell that to that Italian kid who died due to somebody's bad draws... or to anyone adding a sling to an in-place rappel anchor.

This has pretty much been answered, but I'll add a bit of detail.

As far as the Tito accident, the fact that they are project draws means that you can be pretty sure that they are assembled correctly since they have certainly been hung and fallen on a bunch. Project draws are probably some of the most tested gear out there.

You might add a sling to a rap anchor because the other slings that are there have probably been there getting UV damaged for many years. Again, a project draw is a short term thing, so it doesn't have this issue. Also, most added slings to rap anchors are more out of paranoia than actual safety concerns.

Tim Lutz wrote: if you dont want 5.9 TR heros preaching the ethics of leaving draws on a 5.13, then you've come to the wrong place. MP has a long history of the mediocre moral majority telling climbers that project higher than they can count what to do with gear. If they wouldn't leave gear on their trad climb (aka booty), then the same applies to your 5.13 sport route. Thats the rules.

As an American everyone has the same right to get all their gear stolen both sport and trad.

Hope you get your gear back dude.

I knew the "quickdraw thief" video would get posted!!!

really sad that so many climbers see stealing project draws as ok. have some respect for the ethics and etiquette established by the climbing community. educate yourselves on matters before you spray!

Rob T wrote:Posts like this make me wish there were a "Hide posts by climbers that haven't ticked a 5.11" button, similar to the one for sale items and partners. These theft posts would be much easier to read. Daniel, I hope you find your draws, if you're in Salt Lake any time soon I'm sure I could scrounge some older ones around here to contribute to the cause.

Agreed, if you can't get your draws back, I have few to donate as well.

Sorry Dan man. Hope you get those back. Anyone with legitimate climbing experience knows that this is wrong.

In any given chunk of population there will always be a small percentage of jerks. Increase that population, and the amount of jerks will be higher. More climbers equals more jerks. Bummer.

Don't be a jerk.

leaving pro on an ice route or trad climb is not the same. new england ice is probably not the best source for learning climbing etiquette.

xtra blue your gonna have a great time in slc

IMO, it would be cool if the culture changed and hanging draws on lead was the accepted redpoint style.

I think that without this, the number of routes with perma-draws will proliferate. I wouldn't be surprised that within 20 years, top-roping a climb will be considered a valid redpoint.

^^^ ExtraBlue ^^^ yeah! Lol, stoke the fire!

But I think tradman forgot to mention stick-clip aiding a bolt-ladder or rap-stripping is bullshit. You need to be able to climb to partake in the booty game.

On a serious note though, I had no idea of any of this, glad you guys have informed me to the nature of it. That way "when I start climbing" and have "legitimate climbing experience" I'll know what's up and make sure to be ok with clipping your pre-hung draws but not stick around too long on your proj!

many times they are left on the wall because they are so hard to clean.

damn straight "tom"

I am surprised by the level of ignorance in this thread.................well actually I am not. It's almost like there should be some type of knowledge test or ethics test you need to pass in order to post on MP. These project draws or stolen draws threads tend to come up regularly and it brings out the yahoos who are clueless to the ethics of sport climbing areas.
Hope the OP gets his draws back!

tim naylor wrote:really sad that so many climbers see stealing project draws as ok. have some respect for the ethics and etiquette established by the climbing community. educate yourselves on matters before you spray!

Assuming that it was a climber. I don't think the thief in the video was.

I think everyone assumes that all land users in these areas are climbers and should understand what proj draws are, or why you stashed a crash pad, or a bivy cache.

To most normal people it's crap left behind which is all better for the stealing.

i was referring to the posters who think its ok to steal draws from a project. but yes

This whole thread, and the argument started because of it, is astounding to me.

The idea that a full set of draws left on a sport route is "up for grabs" is just ridiculous. The idea that because of "local ethics" it's safe to leave your gear unattended for days at a time is equally ridiculous.

If a route has a full set of draws on it, they were obviously left there for a reason. And if you leave your stuff in a public place, unsecured, you can expect that regardless of laws or local ethics, someone who cares about neither will steal it.

To those who say climbers who don't climb 5.X shouldn't be involved in the conversation: that is stupid. Those climbers are still at the crags and if you want to spread the word that project draws are not booty (maybe even get some help protecting project draws from theft) don't try to exclude them.

My understanding is that a route established and bolted on public land, is public property. Is this correct?

Mathias wrote: To those who say climbers who don't climb 5.X shouldn't be involved in the conversation: that is stupid.

I don't think anyone is saying that climbers who don't climb 5.x shouldn't be involved in the conversation. What people are saying is that climbers who don't climb 5.x are not experienced enough to know the ethics of hard sport climbing, and therefor the comments that they make may not be correct. I think it's great that climbers who don't have much experience are learning on this thread that project draws are not booty, but those climbers certainly don't have the experience necessary to make blanket statements about the ethics of project draws (which many of them seem to be trying to do).

kennoyce wrote: I don't think anyone is saying that climbers who don't climb 5.x shouldn't be involved in the conversation. What people are saying is that climbers who don't climb 5.x are not experienced enough to know the ethics of hard sport climbing, and therefor the comments that they make may not be correct. I think it's great that climbers who don't have much experience are learning on this thread that project draws are not booty, but those climbers certainly don't have the experience necessary to make blanket statements about the ethics of project draws (which many of them seem to be trying to do).

Now this I can fully understand and appreciate.

i think it has more to do with experience than anything. i know plenty of 5.9 climbers that know these ethics. If you see a surf board stuck in the sand do you take it home!