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How Rap Slings came to the Gunks

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 674
Dan Africk wrote: I don't trust the carabiner brake.....Sending a rappel device up on a rope seems like a bad idea to me...........Lowering on this multipitch climb would be similarly problematic...... And Tandem rappel?! Seriously? I don't know how to do that, and that is more than enough reason not to attempt it. The little that I've heard about tandem rappelling in general is that it is more dangerous, more complicated, and more things can go wrong.
Just wondering, are you confusing tandem rappelling with simul-rappelling?

Dan Africk wrote: When difficult situations arise, I think it's best to avoid further complication, risk, and uncertainties if at all possible. Thanks for all the feedback on this tangent, but I'm quite confident that I made the right decision to walk off, given our situation, my skill level at the time, and hers, and the fact that for someone new to outdoor multipitch climbing, hanging on a rope in the dark can be scary on its own. In the same circumstances today, I would almost certainly use a Munter.
I agree with you, based on the skill set you presented. It was a wise choice.

But you also wrote:
Dan Africk wrote: When I'm out there, I'm responsible for myself and my partner, I don't expect anyone to help me, though I'm certainly grateful for a helpful point in the right direction.
So, may I respectfully suggest you learn and try some of those other methods in a controlled environment before your next multi-pitch outing? Try a carabiner brake. (It works fine, BTW) Learn how to tandem rappel (Not as complicated as you may think), etc. You've already learned and tried the Munter. Don't stop there, Dan.
Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

I climbed a lot in the Gunks with a Sticht Plate, and did all my rappels with carabiner brakes. Going over my typically minimalist gear recently, with just a tube type device to belay,what if I dropped it? I decided the one thing that seemed sketchy was a C-brake with four pear shaped wire gates. I did away with a couple wire gates and racked some stuff on solid gate ovals. Pretty rare to not have your small wire racking biners at the end of a pitch.

I really think everyone should know how to belay or rap without any gadgets. I'd go to a waist belay before I would bother with a munter, but it's remarkable how many people freak about them.

Make the Gunks work better? No topropes right of Dertie Gerdie. Climbers must continue to top of cliff and walk off using marked trail. No rap anchors needed, no anchors at all, no trees abused, easy to know what is happening next when you walk up to a party in progress. Huge reduction in posses, dogs, yard sales, gang bangs, rocks coming down, ropes coming down. Put a little safety railing or steps by the one move in the Uberfall, problem solved.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Dream on Tom! Basically, the Preserve has been willing to sacrifice both the cliff ecology and the cliff base ecology in order to keep the traffic down at the cliff top. In any case, you'd run into the problem which, in the opening post of this thread, I claimed initiated the rappelling craze, which is the lack of a good place to leave a pack now that parking is relatively far away.

So it ain't happenin'. But I don't think most weekend climbers have even a clue how much nicer climbing would be at the Trapps if there were no parties descending all over the place, dropping rocks and gear, and tossing ropes onto ascending leaders.

As for rappelling without a gadget, I've done it with all kinds of C-brake setups over the years, but like you I do have a few solid-gate biners for wired nuts that would serve as the base for a C-brake system. That said, there's nothing the matter with a Munter hitch, even if it twists your ropes, if you are in an emergency situation. You do need a pear-shaped biner for that though.

All you really need (assuming you want to avoid the dread Dulfersitz) is one locking biner or a pair on non-lockers you can use with gates opposed. Here's what you do: clip the biner or biners to your harness belay loop, clip the rope through them, and pass it around your hips below the harness belt. That's it---you can rappel fine with this set-up; it's basically a hip belay. I used it for years before the C-brake system arrived. Now there is the matter of rope friction burning your butt. So what you do is take off your shirt and stuff it into your pants for insulation. I'm not joking, this was my method for quite a while. I learned it from Bob Kamps, who used it regularly for multiple big-wall rappels in Yosemite.

Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

Ha yes Rich, just a dream! It would be so cool really, would cut the pressure on the cliff bottom way down, people climbing all kinds of stuff up high, no more camping on routes all day. All those people wanting to rappel faster would be kept busy topping out, leaving a pack would be stupid. Parties of more than three would be rare.

Alas we have people that get to the top of a linear cliff and can't decide which way to turn....

Ha you are a stuffed shirt then Rich! Someone is going to ask which shirts are best for that...wait for it!

Not to worry, there's an App for that!

Dan Africk · · Brooklyn, New York · Joined May 2014 · Points: 275
wivanoff wrote: Just wondering, are you confusing tandem rappelling with simul-rappelling? ...Don't stop there, Dan.
Yes, I was thinking of Simul-rappelling. I've never heard of tandem rapping before. I suppose it's a good option to know about, but it sounds like such a horrible clusterfuck, I can't imagine doing it anything short of an emergency where a person was incapacitated and unable to safely rappel on their own.

I think most of my friends would be laughing if they knew I was being encouraged to practice and study technical rope geekery even more than I already do.. I'm all for being prepared with emergency skills, but this one may be pushing the bounds into the hypothetical, and I can't think of too many people who would subject themselves to being my guinea pig for a tandem rappel.. The concept of attaching another person to my harness is something I could probably figure out in a pinch, but maybe I'll look into that sometime. Right now if I was going to spend time practicing rescue skills, I'd probably focus on things like pulley systems, especially the ones beyond a simple 3:1 z-pulley, which can get confusing but I'm much more likely to find useful, or more efficient transitions from rappel to prusiking, or even something like safe lowering from and ATC in guide mode (which I've studied but not yet had to do).

The carabiner brake is something that I might be perfectly content to never learn. I pretty much always have at least 3 locking carabiners large enough for a munter hitch on 2 strands, so even if I drop 2, It's exceedingly unlikely that I would not be able to use a munter hitch. Even then, I will have other carabiners that would at least work on one strand, so I could either rap on one strand or use two separate munters. I really can't think of any situation where I would consider using a carabiner brake- If I have enough carabiners to make one of those, than I have enough biners to do something safer (IMO). I would sooner set someone up to rappel with a munter and an autoblock, even if they've never used a munter before, than have myself or anyone I'm responsible for use a carabiner brake. It's very possible that the carabiner brake is safer than it seems to me. But I'm happy to have one less variable to worry about.

Thanks for the suggestions.
Dan Africk · · Brooklyn, New York · Joined May 2014 · Points: 275
Alec32 wrote: I think you're ignoring the context. Many climbers who climb horseman don't know what the hell they're doing.
Many climbers all over the Gunks don't know what the hell they're doing. I'm sure we've all seen climbers of all kind doing things that were some combination of rude, reckless, clueless, or borderline suicidal. Sometimes they mostly just put themselves at risk, sometimes their behavior affects a whole lot of people. Bottom line to me is, this is argument is a non-sequitur- The fact that some people often rappel irresponsibly does not mean that others should not do in a responsible manner.

Alec32 wrote:It's dangerous to create a situation where people are encouraged to learn that lesson in a place like Horseman.


I've had ropes hit me in the head while I was leading, and I don't want that happening anywhere. It is obnoxious anywhere that happens. So unless we're proposing banning rappelling entirely, I don't see the point in focusing on avoiding it in just a few spots. I think at least part of the answer is in better educating new climbers, and the climbing community in general, about safe practices and proper etiquette. And Horseman seems like a great teachable location where you can point out that throwing a rope is not just often a bad idea, but rude and potentially dangerous to the people below.

Alec32 wrote:There is absolutely no reason to rap from Horseman other than laziness. The walkoff and rap take the same time, and the walkoff is (as it essentially always is at the Gunks) much safer than rapping. This doesn't mean I think rapping is bad always or that rap slings at the Gunks are always bad. But when people install rap stations, they need to think about the behavior that will encourage. On Horseman, that behavior is dangerous and that station should be chopped.


Call me lazy if you wish, but not wanting to scramble down in climbing shoes when a simple rappel will put me right back at the bottom much more easily, seems like pretty decent reasoning. Again, I disagree with the absolute statement that rappelling on Horseman is dangerous. There are pretty much no loose rocks that you could dislodge on the way down, and unless you're doing something seriously wrong, it's not dangerous. I suppose being in the air for a few more minutes during the rappel increases the odds of you dropping gear on someone, but that's kind of a stretch..

Also, the last time I was up on Horseman with 2 friends, it was pretty chilly, and my second was almost shivering by the time our third (on her first outdoor climb ever) got up to the top. It made a lot of sense to let my friend rappel down first, I'm sure she was on the ground and in her jacket faster than it would have taken me to get them safely on the descent trail, coil the rope, and guide them down the walk off. Granted, walking off would have started to warm us up, but that's a judgement call, and when it comes to the well being of my friends or partners or any matters of safety, I'm going to I think is best, and I don't give a damn about the debate on an internet forum. Climbing is full or decisions and weighing risks and options, it's up to people to make those calls for themselves or their group. As long as people are not putting people in danger, or having an unreasonable impact on others around them, I don't believe in judging people's decisions.

Alec32 wrote:Also, anyone who teaches a new climber to rap on Horseman should rethink their teaching methods, for those reasons and more.
As far as I know, there are no designated 'teaching routes' at the Gunks. And as long as you are not hogging up a classic route by spending a lot of extra time 'teaching' than you otherwise would, I see know problem bringing beginners on classic routes and then rappelling down if that is a practical choice.
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

I believe the point is that the walk off from horseman is more practicle than the rap. So by teaching the new climber to rap from horesman you are perhaps not doing the best job of teaching;)

Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

And your shivering friend could have just headed down as soon as she got to the top, and never been cold...

For sure I'd not tandem rappel with someone who wasn't comfortable with the other solutions I mentioned upthread either.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

Yes, teach the n00bs to wander around on the clifftop looking for the descent, all in the name of being trad in the most gym like section of crag possibly in the world. Bolted anchors ruin the ambiance of the wilderness destination AKA the Uberfall cluster...

rogerbenton · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 210
T Roper wrote:Yes, teach the n00bs to wander around on the clifftop looking for the descent, all in the name of being trad in the most gym like section of crag possibly in the world. Bolted anchors ruin the ambiance of the wilderness destination AKA the Uberfall cluster...
"The Gunks" involves a bit more rock than the Uberfall, fyi.
Dan Africk · · Brooklyn, New York · Joined May 2014 · Points: 275
Tom Stryker wrote:And your shivering friend could have just headed down as soon as she got to the top, and never been cold..
If they were familiar with the walk off, that would be a good idea. But I'm not going to tell someone that's never walked off to go find it on their own, while I was belaying my other friend. Granted it's not hard to find from there, but I don't think it would be particularly responsible or nice of me as a partner to tell them to go figure it out on their own, unless they really wanted to.

But Nick I do see your point about promoting rappelling vs walking off. Too many climbers never walk off and seem excessively averse to doing so, and so it would be good to emphasize that walking off is a good and often preferable option to rappelling. I still think both are valid options, but I will consider walking off more when I'm near the uberfall, and emphasizing this to newer climbers.

This just reminded me of a time last year when I climbed Jackie, and at the top I suggested to my partner that walking off would be faster than two rappels, especially since there was a pair below us coming up the first pitch. But she was convinced that rappelling was faster, and I didn't feel like arguing, so we rapped (this was the girlfriend of a climber I know, and by bad example, poor teaching, and tolerating bad behaviors, he has trained her to be one of the worst climbing partners I've ever met.. But that's a topic for another thread). We ended up waiting at least a half hour at the top of the first pitch while the leader tried to coax his terrified girlfriend (on her first outdoor climb) through the roof move, before eventually lowering her.
On the bright side, I was able to avert a potential disaster by convincing him to use a prusik backup before he lowered her from his ATC in guide mode, since he had no idea how to safely lower.. I also got to point out to my partner what an 'American Death Triangle' was, courtesy of his inexplicably bad anchor (his double-length sling was perfect for a proper anchor from the bolts, which also would have made belaying & lowering much easier for him..)
Dan Africk · · Brooklyn, New York · Joined May 2014 · Points: 275
rogerbenton wrote: "The Gunks" involves a bit more rock than the Uberfall, fyi.
I'm pretty sure T Roper is aware of that.. We were discussing / debating whether it's ok to rappel from Horseman, which in in uberfall.

But T Roper, I don't think anyone is suggesting people walk off in the name of some idealistic purist trad philosophy. I may not agree with everything, but their reasons are practical, tangible ones- speed, courtesy, safety, environmental and aesthetic impacts. And setting good examples for new climbers, that apply more broadly than just one area, is a good point.

I think it's very true that what people learn early on in their first outdoor climbing experiences, really sticks, and those habits can be very hard to change, even when they are not the best practices. I know that's been certainly true for me. That's why introducing people to outdoor climbing is such a big responsibility, we're not only teaching people (hopefully) how to be safe and be good partners, but also how to be responsible, minimize our environmental impact, and have good climbing ethics and etiquette. I appreciate all the thoughts and feedback from everyone. I may not agree with everything, but these are discussions worth having, and I know I will give more thought to walking off vs rappelling.
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

If you have the opertunity to walk off reasonably vs dropping a rope on a party below you then that is the polite and safe thing to do. Teaching a new climber to rap on top of annother party perpetuates bad manners and unsafe practices. No different than smokeing, drinking and useing fowl language in front of children.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Nick Goldsmith wrote:No different than smokeing[sic], drinking and useing[sic] fowl language in front of children.
I think most children can handle talking about birds.
Dan Africk · · Brooklyn, New York · Joined May 2014 · Points: 275

Nick I think you're beating a dead straw man.. Who is suggesting rapping on top of another party?

Rob D · · Queens, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 30

new bolt anchors added in the jackie area and at baby to reduce impact on the overcliff.

James Sweeney · · Roselle Park, NJ · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 30

and Betty.... Gunks Climbers Coalitionbolting effort

They've also replaced manky bolts on Blackout, Arrow, and Carbs and Caffeine.

The GCC will likely post a full listing when they have finished.

Big thanks to all involved for putting in the work and making this happen.

Rob D · · Queens, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 30

I don't know where I saw it (facebook maybe?) but someone posted a video of the arrow bolt being removed and it was rotten. pretty manky looking stuff.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I thought the survey was poorly designed. Questions 2 and 3 are pointless--- any reasonable person would have to answer “yes” to those. Questions 4 and 5 promulgate false dichotomies, eliminating critical options and so presenting a thoughtful responder with inadequate choices.

The people who wrote the survey favor bolting as a solution, initially proposing adding some fifty odd bolted stations. The survey gave them the results they wanted. But the trends in modern climbing being what they are, it may well be that flawed or not, the survey results might be accurate. Climbers want more bolts. Is anyone really surprised by this?

In the case of the Preserve, what various user groups and subgroups might want is not necessarily determinative, and properly so. I think the biggest problem is that the Preserve has been unable to develop a coherent overall philosophy about the role of bolted stations, balancing the competing demands of preservation and access that have been part of the Preserve even before its existence. And this failure to come up with any kind of standards means they are caught in an endless cycle of putting out "brush fires" as these flare up.

I have at several points, the last being almost a year ago, proposed getting the Preserve out of its current role, and moving to a model based on the Action Committee for Eldorado (ACE). Anyone unfamiliar with how that works could look at aceeldo.org/fhrc/ACE_Fixed_…. The Preserve could have representation on the committee, or veto power, or presumably both to insure that its critical interests are safeguarded. But I think in order to avoid the effect of building outhouses wherever there is poop, standards would really have to be promulgated that the committee would have to observe in making its decisions.

Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
JSH wrote:5) I would support replacing an existing rappel anchor with a bolted rappel anchor if the anchor… (CHOOSE ALL THAT APPLY) o) poses a negative environmental impact. (ie. erosion, soil compaction, tree bark wear) 90% o) is unsafe due to rusted pitons, old gear, or aged/nested slings 90% o) I do not support any form of bolted anchor 2% o) I don’t know 2%
Regardless of spin, this is so lob-sided it bears paying some attention to.

I actually just renewed my Access Fund membership and added a joint membership with GCC to support the work they're doing.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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