SCC Community Forum

I don't think he meant fixed anchors as in top anchors. I think he meant fixed protection.

Here's something...

Bernard doesn't care if his routes get retroed. Shannon does. (I know that that has yet to be substantiated..."prove it prove it prove it!"...blah blah blah....spare me already).

BUT...would it be OK to let retros go in only on this guy's routes, but not this other guy...at the same crag? That would just be weird. Wouldn't it?

You guys should come out west where the only bolts are at the anchors :)

Bon Homme

Rhett-Don't talk to me about it, I'll climb wide, bolts, no bolts, even skip bolts- whatever is good...that photo brings up great memories, my finest onsight in 1989 was El Matador, and pretty much my calves still hurt!

Paul, that wouldn't be weird at all to me. If the FA has no problem with rebolting their route, then no one should beef about it. If Shannon got beef and he led the "trad" pitch on gear (cough cough-some fixed? lol), then imo his routes should be fixed the way he likes.

As I've just stated, anyone who has beef with these things can always do what Petit or me, or any number of other "rad`trads" would do and lead it on gear (with an air of superiority and disdain~ that is best imo)...no one is taking away any challenge from anyone.

youtu.be/nuHfVn_cfHU

If any other part of a first ascent team has beef with retro, you always defer to whoever led it. At least according to my trad mentors philosophy...who established "Bachars Bush Bosch Bangup" (onsight ground up hand drilled) 5.10c shortly after hashing JB out...

taipan jam wrote: If Shannon got beef and he led the "trad" pitch on gear (cough cough-some fixed? lol)

You seem to be inferring something about his methods as though you have some sort of first hand knowledge, although I'm not sure what. Hard to tell with folks who won't use their name.

Come to think of it...any account created in the middle of all this under an alias is pretty suspect.

lol he himself encouraged it earlier in the thread...

Look back and see for yourself.

All I'm saying is that's some skullduggery hangdoggery -according to my mentors), who in retrospect seem like some real hard BAMFs compared to most trads (cough cough) these days.

Now if you get the reference "Gerughty, get your foot of that ----- bolt" you'll know under whose wings one of my mentors grew up under...

_+++_++_++

If we really want to go there with the ahem "bastion" of SE ethics, let's continue on and talk about some of the bolder(est) routes established in not such a bold manner (RBs anyone? preinspection? rehearsal? full on?). Kind of skullduggerish to the 2nd ascentionists if these "little details" aren't mentioned and the seconds are going up to onsight, wouldn't you say?

Ah, let me correct myself.

Shannon Stegg was there and I got to talk with him one on one. The message I get from him is this: You may need a bit of fixed gear on blank sections to protect a route but don’t cheat yourself out of the full experience by bolting everything that is taking the easy way. I think this is great advice.


Think whatever you guys want, make a statement like that around my mentors that would get you laughed right off the rope....I'm a little lax in comparison. Maybe even a lot...I even clip shinies from time to time.

But trust me I've seen more than my shared of this "fixed" junk all over the states...I've yanked pins out on more than one occasion, sometimes by hand, sometimes by fall.

There, I fixed it for you.

I think I can clear that up for you. What I said was that while somebody was swingin around on a rope sussing out bolt placement they could also be sussin out gear placements while they were up there and even preplace it to see if there was indeed a suitable placement if they so chose...implying that any and all efforts should be made to reduce the number of bolts. I never said that would make it a "trad" route or indicated that it would be in any sort of fine style. It would just be a route sans bolt(s)...which should be the goal.

Also...I believe (but you'll have to ask him) that when Shannon mentioned the need for fixed gear in a blank section that that probably meant a bolt as well?

Kudos on the use of one of my favorite words that nobody knows...Skullduggery...I dig that word.

Fair enough.

All I'm saying is you'd get laughed off the ropes in the 80s with the guys I grew up with for those tactics you mention. But those guys didn't frig like most modern trads do. Heck, if some these tactics had been in place in a bit earlier, I'm sure Jones and Hudon would have freed the Salathe back when they almost did it with trad style (no hanging, lowering after falls etc).

My memory is poor, but I believe the original hangdog term was applied to Brits who "preinspected" (and perhaps a little more?)

Ayway back on point (pink? lol) w/ Yellow Bluff

I got no probs with him cleaning up his own FA's, but if Bernard doesn't care then no one else should. I might even have to get to YB this winter to see what all the hub bub is about.

You guys could be a little more clear about your definitions here. Let's call a bolt a bolt from now on. The call for cleaning anchors upthread was real misleading to me personally. Anchor means top of pitch in my book, but others may not see it that way.

Edit: Making routes intentionally dangerous when you've prerehearsed, sussed gears, even placed it is exactly the type of poppycock I'm talking about. Trad? That's not trad. That's a joke. A very dangerous one...

I gotta pay some respect to Bachar here after throwing him under the bus earlier. He'd never do that kind of crap you are referring to....he was a BAMF himself. RIP JB

saxfiend wrote:Yes. And the corollary is -- if you know what's there and don't share that information, how can you responsibly claim that something's been altered?

You claim total irresponsibility and make wild, outlandish accusations...some that have yet to be proven wrong...and stand your ground
And when an entire "community" shows up "madder-n-hell", one of whom has a list of his own, then you know something's up.
We've now heard of the (GASP) "secret list" being passed around the SCC.
But, I digress.

Sadly, it seems we must leave the YB stuff alone, so it will get handled, if it's gonna get handled.
The SCC has made it clear that they are going to wait until any chatter dies down...
Presumably, so that they can claim any action taken was not a result of this thread.

saxfiend wrote:I agree with you that getting it right should be the goal, no matter how long it takes. And the first step in getting it right, as you said, is documenting the history. And to repeat my comments from the earlier forum thread, this all would have been a lot easier and a lot of controversy could have been avoided if people like Shannon had come forward when they were asked to do so and not withheld what they knew about Yellow Bluff. JL

Interesting that you say that since I have personally asked you to help "get right" with the Steele database and the crappy Alabama page, in general.
Bernard has done an admirable job recording routes at Birmingham, Alabama's "home crag", even if not so much at YB.
Problematically, out of 75+ routes, many of them his, all but 18 of the routes posted here are either to the right or left of SCC-owned property.
In other words, the very guy who can't decide if he wants his retros fixed is the one who seems to be advertising trespass-oriented climbing in the same state.
Since he is a SCC Board Member, I am concerned with the precedent.

As an Administrator of MP, it could be said that you are complicit in furthering the sanctioned trespass that Bernard (SCC Board Member) seems to be promoting in ALabama, right alongside sanctioned retros.
Meanwhile, the SCC seems substatially confused, lied-to, or simply absent at many spots in Alabama....some of which they own.

I say again, where is the SCC in all of this?
We now know what one of their Board Members thinks of retros and sanctioned trespass.
Glad he could find the time to post it "over there"...

This whole thing reminds me of a quote from Full Metal Jacket (Parris Island phase): "I think I'm gonna hate this movie."

BHMBen wrote:You claim total irresponsibility and make wild, outlandish accusations...some that have yet to be proven wrong...and stand your ground And when an entire "community" shows up "madder-n-hell", one of whom has a list of his own, then you know something's up. We've now heard of the (GASP) "secret list" being passed around the SCC. But, I digress.

One thing I've carried over from my days as a journalist -- after I write something, I sit back, take a few breaths, and then read what I've just written, asking myself "would this make any sense at all to somebody besides me?" I highly recommend you do the same.

BHMBen wrote:I have personally asked you to help "get right" with the Steele database

What a difference a couple of months makes:

BHMBen wrote:I don't need assistance or nannery from you.

Ben, if you've sent me an email asking for changes to the Steele page, I don't remember ever seeing it; I may have just misplaced or forgotten it, in which case, I sincerely apologize, but in spite of the insults, I wasn't ignoring you. The Steele page does need work, and once the dust has settled, I'll work with knowledgeable parties to improve things. But one thing that isn't going to happen is the wholesale deletion of known routes; that horse has already left the barn. It's delusional to think that if these routes weren't on MP, people would stop climbing them.

JL

So After all this I decided to look at the YB page on my Mtn project app. There are 49 routes listed under the closed section. This seems excessive and unnecessary. Sure I'd want to know about the routes but I'd also like to climb them. If they're not on SCC Property or property that is open to the public then the individual route descriptions should be taken down. Leave up the history and rough details. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not aware of Mtn proj making a habit of posting closed routes. A gear route should stay a gear route

Check out the Steele page. Here's how it breaks down...

mountainproject.com/v/11073…

The SCC owns only 18 of the routes posted.

Well, John, if you did not receive my PMs, I apologize as well.
I sent two to you in the last year, one only four days ago.
I also reached out to Kritine Hoffman on July 2nd.
Maybe y'all should check on that.

Yessir, I would agree that it would be unlikley that all climbing off of SCC land would cease if you took down the info.
But, just like the 80's articles on Steele, Y.B., and Y.C., posting it is akin to promoting it.
And one concern is that the SCC is involved.

Aside from the bad P.R. on behalf of MP Administration (you), the SCC, and the SCC managers, there's a safety concern.
It is not those that would have gone back there anyway that I worry about.
It's your typical gym climbing buddies or young/fresh trad climbers.
The responsible thing would be to corral them on SCC land.
Not off of property where unwanted publicity such as an accident or run in with neighbors will make things even worse for climbers in AL.

Even you say you'll wait til the dust settles....
Use common sense here.

I was reflecting ... at the Docs office.

Would Royal Robbins top down the FA of Half Dome? How about Warren Harding...would he frig on a rope putting up the FA of El Cap? The King Swing could be called a frig, technically I guess
but having done it a couple of times, I still marvel at the genius of Batso. Probably even moreso with Dolt. The genesis of the Dolt Cart by it's very nature was a ground up invention.

I guess it's just the generation I grew up in. Few care about style or ethic.
Someone I always looked up to was Jonny Woodward. Instead of friggery on a rope, he used 3 on the FA of the trad masterpiece "Beau Geste". Perhaps that's a frig to ppl, but I just find it bold and harrowing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2zRgjv6LwE

Brit bamf from the 90's, Simon Nadin do it. I witnessed Nadin grab a fistful of stoppers, hop on a 13a finger crack and onsight it to the last move. Fell off the anchor. Very impressive trad outing, but he was no sport slouch, either...Still it boggled my mind he wasn't using TCU's...

Back to Woodward, wow try doing some of that guys ground up stuff in the desert. He used to hang the whole kit (hammer, drills bolt) off the last bolt
then have it hauled off of him..from what I understand..."when in doubt, run it out" was these guys motto.

we aren't talking pattycake 5.9 either, we are talking sustained 5.11/5.12 slab. Imagine the works coming down with you when you whip. Yeah, and whip you will on crumbly Joshua Tree 5.12 slab.

Speaking of old school traddies, I'd be remiss not to mention Darrell Hensel (Henny Penny and Dimes) Kevin Powell when talking scary trad ground up.
I never did test myself on their masterpiece runout hard stuff, but managed to grunge up a bolt ladder or two that those guys freed....

books.google.com/books?id=-…

Looking at "untainted" ascents these days, there's some gnarcore trad here and there.

dmmclimbing.com/news/2015/0… Looks pretty scary to me...

Solutions

if any1 is truly averse to small metal rods, I have some suggestions for "medications".

-)move to a truly trad area in Europe or Britain...

-) start doing ground uppers yourself. Quite enervating to be
placing bolts off a shaky hook placement. In more ways that one.

Even more adventurous is hand drilling, which you'll need to be doing if you are out in the wilderness of course. Best to get those skills now!

Still, if you are "most places USA" you can rotary in and there is nothing quite
like falling with the Boschhammerandhammerandkit flaying around you, I gotta say...(say it with a German accent? Looong story)...

-) ould also try highball soloing if you are looking for a thrill. Having been up top of both Peabodys, I can tell you that itis quite a ride. Of course, I took the easy side.

Not this side.

youtube.com/watch?v=EdMsY5s…

Amazing. We always pawed at the holds, knowing that Dale Bard (another unheralded trad master with many 5.12 crack FA in Yosemite and all over CA) was legitimately trying this aspect of Grandpa...but it seemed impossible for humans
To me at least. Without a few bolts...(for aid? ha!) Nope. Proven wrong again. It goes.

I guess that was a real long winded gas bag missive
that can be summed up. I'm going to try to heal thyself as well.

I love trad!

saxfiend wrote:It's delusional to think that if these routes weren't on MP, people would stop climbing them.

This is a good point. And here's what I think...

Here's a comment from the property manager:

"Here is the deal. Since I am the "Steele manager" I am going to recommend that rules be posted at Steele strictly limiting climbing to SCC land ONLY.. This will dumb down the climbing at Steele to a handful of routes..."

Now...what in the hell would give anyone the idea that it was ever any other way?

And then there's this from the SCC Spring meeting minutes:

"A landowner for a private portion of Steele is closing their portion of the cliff and has asked SCC to post boundary of property where SCC land meets their land."

How in the hell can you CLOSE something that was never OPEN in the first place?? (this is where the assertion of an entitlement mentality comes from)

Was this highly touted Steele purchase nothing more than a trespass easement sanctioned by the SCC to begin with? Were these 18 routes purchased with the full intent of accessing all of the others?? See...when you do this, and advertise it on the internet by posting all of the private property routes on MP...it's not exactly your seasoned journeyman climbing teams that you're helping. They were probably gonna be in there anyway...unnoticed. What it really does is turn the masses loose with their drills and hammocks and dogs and ipod speakers and such and in the long run does more to hurt access, and the public perception of climbers, than it does to help it. Which is precisely what has happened at Steele.

BHMBen wrote:You claim total irresponsibility and make wild, outlandish accusations...some that have yet to be proven wrong...and stand your ground And when an entire "community" shows up "madder-n-hell", one of whom has a list of his own, then you know something's up. We've now heard of the (GASP) "secret list" being passed around the SCC. But, I digress.

Pure comedic gold. Bravo sir.

webdog wrote:So After all this I decided to look at the YB page on my Mtn project app. There are 49 routes listed under the closed section.

Since nobody else here is likely to point out the obvious... On Mountain Project's Yellow Bluff page, there are 49 routes listed under "Right Side Cliff". I've never been there, but on the YB page it says "...SCC announced that it had secured a contract to purchase the right half of Yellow Bluff". Also, on the Right Side Cliff page, it says "...property line is marked with a 'no trespassing' sign; do not hike or climb past this sign or you'll be jeopardizing future access by trespassing!" So those 49 routes are listed under the open SCC section of the cliff and the page for that section instructs people not to trespass beyond the marked property boundary. I believe the closed section is often referred to as the left side and, as far as I can tell, is not listed on Mountain Project at all. I know we're not really bothering with facts here, but I just wanted to point that out.

Yeah lets get the facts straight. Are those routes open or closed? IMO closed should be removed from db so no one like me gets confused.

Whoa, whoa. Is that thing about Steele right? Only 18 of the 78 routes are on SCC property? The other 60 are on private property?

So did I read that wrong? Are the right side routes open?