Pull Cord/Tag Line Help

Looking for information on what size cord/what type to use for a pull cord full length rappelling setup. I currently have a 8 mil static ive been using as a tag line but its not packable into a backpack and doubles rope management issue, also its heavy.

-Thinking about something around 5 mil, but not sure where to get cord in that quantity at a good price.(70m,im poor)

-Also looking for good ways on how to store/wrap it when not being used.

-Recently was told that you can chop the cord while epicing for anchors on rappell?

• *I am aware of the dangers of a pull cord and how it needs to be set up (in a closed loop)

Cheers,
Jaysen

If you've got the bucks, I'd consider the Edelrid Rap Line II. Read about the details at blog.weighmyrack.com/edelri….

Edit: There is also the Esprit Alpine rope, reviewed at outdoorgearlab.com/Tag-Line…. It's stiffness is an advantage, but you can't use it as an emergency lead rope, so the Edelrid is a safer alternative.

A friend of mine had five mill. It was very hard and even painful to pull. I would not recommend it. I have a 62 m six mill that I don't really use and I would sell it for cheap if you are interested. I have only used it a handful of times.

The thinner the cord, the faster it will wear out from abrasion, the more easily it will tangle, and the more likely it is to hang up on stuff when pulling. If the pull cord is too much thinner than the rap line, joining the ropes with an overhand knot (widely regarded as a really good way to join two ropes for rappelling) becomes less secure. For all these reasons, the law of diminishing returns seems to kick in somewhere around 7 mm, for me at any rate.

Ways to carry the rope: Coil it backpack style and let the second carry it. Otherwise, get a bigger pack and put it in the pack. Is your 8mm too stiff to go into a backpack?

Yes, you can chop the cord and use the bits for anchors, or you can use runners or quickdraws, whatever you feel like leaving behind.

REI sells bulk 5mm, 6mm, 7mm and 8mm static cord, and I'm sure lots of other climbing shops do. Be careful mail ordering such a long length of cord, you might end up with two lengths of cord totaling 70 meters.

Check out esprit alpine escape line or the above mentioned edelrid rap line

mark felber wrote:The thinner the cord,...the more likely it is to hang up on stuff when pulling.

You're pulling the tag line, so it isn't going to hang up on stuff the way a falling rope might. Of course, it might hang up when you toss it, but at least you are above the snags. Many people keep the tag line with them when rapping rather than throwing it.

mark felber wrote:If the pull cord is too much thinner than the rap line, joining the ropes with an overhand knot (widely regarded as a really good way to join two ropes for rappelling) becomes less secure.

Do you have pull test references for this? I think it likely that properly tied, the EDK is actually more secure with unequal diameter ropes, because you can minimize rolling, which is the primary failure mode. See for example





Don't get me wrong, I think a thin tag line is a bad solution to the need for full-length rappels, unless you just want it for an occasional single rap. But At least with the Edelrid you can lead back up on it after your good line comes free of the anchor and then hangs up. But the OP wasn't asking for advice on this...

Never rap on lines with large differences in diameter, the friction properties are different and can cause a variety of issues. The best way to rap with a pull cord is to "fix" the line in a closed loop with an alpine butterfly and a locker. This is what makes this method a "pull cord" and not a tagline.

bigfootmountainguides.com/2…

rgold wrote: You're pulling the tag line, so it isn't going to hang up on stuff the way a falling rope might.

When doing a multi-rappel descent, it's very common to feed the rope being pulled into the anchor for the next rappel as the rope is being pulled, so that when the rope is clear of the rappel just completed it is set up for the next rappel. This saves time and effort, but it means that each rope is going to be the pull cord on half of the rappels on a given descent.

If you feed the tag line during multipitch rappels, then you need to be super careful about uneven running of the ropes, and take one of several different measures---one mentioned above---to keep disaster at bay. You also have to be comfortable committing the entire rappel load to the tag line.

Most people I know prefer to rap on the big climbing rope, in which case you can't thread the tag line at rap stations unless, as is more common in Europe, there are very big rings that make it easy to slide the knot through the ring. Or, you can fasten the big climbing rope for all but the last person down, who had better remember to undo that knot...

I always rap both ropes and do alternate the lines feeding on multiple raps...the thing that hasn't been mentioned (I don't think) is a STATIC rap line is the only way to go

I use Sterling 7mm..I also have used an 8mm and a 6mm 7mm seems a good compromise and 5mm is really small for anything

I have used the Personal Escape by Esprit for over 10 years and have cut the original to 52 meters because of a core shot due to using it in Josh as the anchor on Hot Rocks. Should of protected the knot because of stretch in it causing it to rub a little too much during our repeated TR attempts. Usually thread the tag for really hard pulls with a lot of friction as the tag has less friction thru the anchor.

When threading the Lead line I always pray that the pull is good and it doesn't get stuck. No one want's to lead on a 6 mil tag that is static. But would not mind aiding with it or easy free climbing as I trust it and it does stretch a bit.

That said it is a work horse and takes the abuse. Talked to Valerie a while back (the owner of Esprit) said she developed the ropes with one thing in mind, FA's don't always have the luxury of cleaned up routes, sharp edges that you realize are there after you pass them, falling debris, and all the other hazards that pop up when your going where usually no one else has. She did some pretty hard things in the Potrero a number of years ago and it can be a nightmare putting up routes there with all the junk on those unclimbed walls.

ALL most always use a square knot with a double fisherman's as a back up on both sides. Have and do use the over hand with the tag backed up over the lead with a double fisherman's when it looks like the pull might need to hop over some uneven terrain.
Thumbs up for this one!

Tried 5mm - hard to pull as someone said. Now am back to 6 mm. But get "static" cord, not dynamic. Makes a world of difference.

The pictures do not signify a specific anchor location, the primary detail is whether the skinny or thick cord is on the inside or outside of the overhand knot. 

The photos are focused on how to join the ropes relative to the forces that will act on them.

Avoid reading too much else into them.  They actually look to me like they are on the bathroom floor where the tub and commode are in a tug-o-war. :)

Hobo Greg wrote:

Could someone explain the photos to me? I thought you were supposed to be rapping on the thicker rope but the middle picture, which says correct, shows the tagline going up to the anchor, does it not?

The two previous comments ought to suffice, and Bill came close to pinning down the locale.  There is no anchor in the picture,  no implied anchor location, and yes, you usually rap on the thicker strand.

Hobo Greg wrote: 

... how serious is it to ensure the proper orientation of the two strands regarding the smaller one on the inside?

I treat it as a pretty serious step to do.

This application of the knot is relatively weak by comparison to other knots / applications.  Hence, a lot of detailed but still easy-to-do steps are advised (below) to minimize the chance of total failure.  And proper orientation for dissimilar cord diameters is just one more easy and important step.  Details ...

Most complete instructions about tying the EDK include relatively long tails - 18 inches is what I've usually seen.  The long tails allow for an initial capsize and then the usual tightening up - as opposed to the knot being able to simply and immediately roll off when the tails are too short.

By 'tightening up', I mean that the force needed for the initial capsize can be surprisingly low, both by itself (!) and in comparison to the force subsequently needed to continue to total failure (see Tom Moyer's Page on EDK Testing).

So, while long tails can make a difference between a) a scare-y partial failure and b) a gawd-awful total failure under relatively small loads, better is if one can avoid even partial failure.  

And steps can be taken to help avoid partial failure, such as:

1. dress the knot well
2. pre-tension the knot by pulling separately on each strand

And when the cord diameters are different, add ...

3. Configure the knot to maximize the force needed to start the capsize (i.e., skinny cord must first roll over the fat one)

… if one does not do #3, I suspect the dissimilar cord diameters actually reduces (!) the force needed to get to a scare-y partial failure as compared to like-diameter cords.

Just get half ropes or twins. ;)

A habit left over from the early days of EDK use, I always use the "secured" version (third pic) of the EDK, even when rope diameters are the same.  The extra single knot adds very little bulk, unlike some recommendations to just tie two overhands one on top of the other.

I think User76 is speaking of the Flemish bend, animatedknots.com/fig8join/…, a well-known joining knot in use ages before the EDK came to town.  (I don't think he meant tying the first eight on a bight.)   The Flemish bend has none of the good pull-down properties of the EDK and can get very tight under loading, although not as bad as the double fishermans, which remains the gold standard for strength and security.

User76 wrote: Thanks Mr. gold I actually never knew some of the history of the flemish bend. However I actually did mean tie the first eight on a bight. Then tie the second rope to the bight as if you were tying in to your harness. 

The first eight for a harness tie in is usually not done “on a bight” of rope.
To be a bit clearer, the harness tie in at the rope end is often called a “figure eight rewoven.”. While a “figure eight on a bight” looks identical in how the rope runs through the knot but can be easily tied at any point along the length of the rope, even in the middle.
(Sorry no can do pics right now.)

User76 wrote: ...I actually did mean tie the first eight on a bight. Then tie the second rope to the bight as if you were tying in to your harness. 

I honestly can't imagine why anyone would do this with rappel ropes.  Is it possible you don't know what "bight" means?  You are saying that you tie this:

In one end and then follow it through with the other end.  The knot part would have altogether three parallel stands and a loop sticking out to catch on everything when you pull the rappel.

Oh, linked figure-eights on bights.  Don't do it unless there is a tremendous difference in rope diameters, as it'll get hung up everywhere.