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Using anchors for TR'ing/belaying a follow

Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86
Kent Richards wrote: Probably would, but at the expense of adding a lot of risk to the person cleaning. Everyone has their own line around budget & rope wear. Spending time with someone who's permanently disabled due to falling from an anchor, the money I'd save from folks rappelling is completely irrelevant now. I'd rather wear out a rope lowering someone than pressure them to rappel. If I'm the cleaner, sometimes I rap and sometimes I lower.
Another good outlook in rapping kent! I didn't consider cleaning the route off of a rappel. It's true, I probably wouldn't consider that a great idea. In that case I would probably let my top roper clean up for their practice. All great things to consider when studying my next climbs. However, with the lessons I've been taught, I'm still reluctant to lower off of anything other than some leave-behinds. I just want to do my part to extend the enjoyment of other users and take pressure off route setters to fix their anchors. As funds build and lessons are learned, I'll be working my way off sport routes and on to trad. I'm in it for the adventure and not the game. To be able to go just about anywhere, anytime.
Kent Richards · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 81
Micah Klesick wrote: I would disagree. If there are anchor biners on the route, then clip them, and don't feel bad when your follower TR's through them. If they are rings, don't TR through them, but feel free to lower on them. It's becoming a much more common and encouraged practice to lower through rap rings and anchor biners. Obviously, if you are doing multiple sessions on a route, consider putting your own draws on it until you are done, but at least in the Oregon and Washington area, you are more than welcome, and actually encouraged in most places to lower off fixed hardware, rather than rapping. Those beefy steel rings and biners can handle thousands of lowers with out becoming compromised.
Just to be clear, it sounds like you're saying that one TR -- by a "follower", who then cleans the route -- is OK with you, but multiple TR's is not OK.

Am I interpreting you correctly?
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

As a setter myself, I and all my friends who also set are happy to see the last person in a group lower off beefy anchors rather than feel they should rappel to save wear. It is expected that the rest in the group lower or TR off their own gear. Seeing people needlessly put themselves in danger on ones route is a lot more upsetting than replaceable stuff that is being used properly getting worn.

redlude97 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 5
Kent Richards wrote: Just to be clear, it sounds like you're saying that one TR -- by a "follower", who then cleans the route -- is OK with you, but multiple TR's is not OK. Am I interpreting you correctly?
If there are beefy steel biners then yes. Same goes for all the sport crags here in washington. Don't TR gangbang a route on the fixed gear but 1 follower is no issue at all
Micah Klesick · · Charlotte, NC · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 3,971
Kent Richards wrote: Just to be clear, it sounds like you're saying that one TR -- by a "follower", who then cleans the route -- is OK with you, but multiple TR's is not OK. Am I interpreting you correctly?
Yes, in most cases, that is what I would advise.
Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
PJHeinz83 wrote:The gear is there to be used...
Funny, that's EXACTLY what one of the climbers told me.
Eric Chabot · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 45
redlude97 wrote: If there are beefy steel biners then yes. Same goes for all the sport crags here in washington. Don't TR gangbang a route on the fixed gear but 1 follower is no issue at all
The last follower doesn't have to TR on the fixed gear. They TR on the draws the leader puts up, then lower off the climb on the fixed gear. That way, if it's a dogging session, with lots of hanging, batmanning, belay/haul assisted climbing etc. then the chains don't see that wear.

+1 to what Mark Sprague said. I would add:

The lowering / rapping thing is route dependent. I was a 'rap-everything-to-clean' gumby until 2 things changed:

1. I started leading most of the pitches I climbed/cleaned
2. I got strong enough to climb overhanging routes. These routes are scary and dangerous (or even impossible) to clean (after leading) on rappel, but very easy to clean while being lowered off if you 'tram' in to the rope. This and other sport climbing tactics can be observed if you go to a steep sport crag (like Waimea at Rumney, or the Minimum Crag at Maple).

The way I roll:

If you're cleaning an overhanging route as you TR the route, cleaning draws on the way, then rap.

If you're cleaning the exact same route after you lead the route, you need to clean the draws on the way down. Lower off.

If you're cleaning a route without an overhang / roof / traverse, then rap, unless the chains are equipped with hardware meant for lowering. Then lower off the shuts to clean, but do all your other climbing/dogging on your own gear.

If you are rapping, back the shit up. I rappel for work with a backup, and started always using one for my personal climbing as well. I use a third hand prussik from my belay loop with my device extended on a tether. Irrational safetyism? Maybe, but it makes untangling the rope or minor swings / other shenanigans a lot safer.

I'd encourage all of those who 'always' rap to clean to go and lead the route Satisfaction Guaranteed at the New and then try to clean on rappel after leading it. That's where I learned my lesson.
curt86iroc · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 274
Rick Blair wrote:If you insist on not using gear on a regular route then maybe buy some beefy quick links to leave behind. Wow! Showing random people how to rap at a crag is way outside my comfort zone. I think I would just let that be. One lower at the end is not that bad, better than someone screwing up on rap and injuring/killing themselves.
its pretty hard to injure/die learning how to rap while being instructed. fireman's belay's are quite useful!

IMO i see so many people rapping incorrectly that most times they are more likely to injure themselves if i DONT say something. do you know how many people still don't knot the ends of their rope and rap w/ no backups?
redlude97 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 5
Eric Chabot wrote: The last follower doesn't have to TR on the fixed gear. They TR on the draws the leader puts up, then lower off the climb on the fixed gear. That way, if it's a dogging session, with lots of hanging, batmanning, belay/haul assisted climbing etc. then the chains don't see that wear. +1 to what Mark Sprague said. I would add: The lowering / rapping thing is route dependent. I was a 'rap-everything-to-clean' gumby until 2 things changed: 1. I started leading most of the pitches I climbed/cleaned 2. I got strong enough to climb overhanging routes. These routes are scary and dangerous (or even impossible) to clean (after leading) on rappel, but very easy to clean while being lowered off if you 'tram' in to the rope. This and other sport climbing tactics can be observed if you go to a steep sport crag (like Waimea at Rumney, or the Minimum Crag at Maple). The way I roll: If you're cleaning an overhanging route as you TR the route, cleaning draws on the way, then rap. If you're cleaning the exact same route after you lead the route, you need to clean the draws on the way down. Lower off. If you're cleaning a route without an overhang / roof / traverse, then rap, unless the chains are equipped with hardware meant for lowering. Then lower off the shuts to clean, but do all your other climbing/dogging on your own gear. If you are rapping, back the shit up. I rappel for work with a backup, and started always using one for my personal climbing as well. I use a third hand prussik from my belay loop with my device extended on a tether. Irrational safetyism? Maybe, but it makes untangling the rope or minor swings / other shenanigans a lot safer. I'd encourage all of those who 'always' rap to clean to go and lead the route Satisfaction Guaranteed at the New and then try to clean on rappel after leading it. That's where I learned my lesson.
No they don't, but they don't have to lower either. both cause wear. its no different than permadraws, the gear is put in to be used for convenience. In the PNW, no one cares and they all want you to use the hardware, because its just a little bit safer. Every developer I've run into would prefer replacing gear whenever its necessary if it saves even one accident. Like Micah said above, thats what he wants them to do, and he's putting in the gear. Same here in the seattle area. Lots of big beefy anchor biners that everyone just lowers off of, and if someone happens to TR off them no one seems to be offended. A lot of the times we are talking about routes that are all permas as well, so carrying 2 draws for just the anchors seem pointless when you're whipping on the draws all day anyways. They are wear items and meant to be used and replaced when necessary
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
Micah Klesick wrote: More people are injured rappelling than doing anything else in climbing. :
This is 100% false. But, it is the lore that is still passed down. Rappelling accidents actually are a small percentage of climbing accidents but are usually fatal. Hence, the reputation.

And to claim lowering is safer than rappelling is strictly an opinion. For those of us that have been keeping up with accidents for many years, people being lowered off the end of the rope or completely dropped from the top because of miscommunication is far more common than rappelling accidents, especially if you a comparing apples to apples. That is, single pitch cragging lowering vs rappelling and leave out mandatory rappels such as multi pitch climbs. Unfortunately, I got to assist picking up the pieces of a guy that fell over 100 feet when he thought he was being lowered.

One plus for rappelling that can't be argued, if you choose to rappel, communication is no longer a factor. You are completely self reliant. This can be a plus if you didn't make a plan before you left the ground, or if there is a lot of other people around, or loud river or highway.

One plus for lowering (as is mentioned ad nauseam), it may be impossible to clean overhanging or traversing route while rappelling. In this case, lowering is superior.

But do whatever makes you most comfortable.
Eric Chabot · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 45
redlude97 wrote: No they don't, but they don't have to lower either. both cause wear. its no different than permadraws, the gear is put in to be used for convenience.
Actually they might have to lower to clean safely after they led the route (if it's steep/traverses and not all permas). Although I guess in the context of this thread ('Using anchors for TR'ing/belaying a follow') you are right and they could rap if they just TRed the route and cleaned on the way up.

Cool that this is the accepted practice at your area. Last time I was at Equinox (*gasp* I mentioned it online) I noticed some pretty worn lower off biners, definitely not all steel, and used my own draws to lower off if someone else was climbing (as did the others I was climbing with) the route after me.

redlude97 wrote:no one cares and they all want you to use the hardware, because its just a little bit safer
TRing off the shuts is just a little bit safer? pulling up some slack, dropping it through the shuts and saying 'take' and cleaning the draws...doesn't seem that dangerous to me.
redlude97 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 5
Eric Chabot wrote: Actually they might have to lower to clean safely after they led the route (if it's steep/traverses and not all permas). Although I guess in the context of this thread ('Using anchors for TR'ing/belaying a follow') you are right and they could rap if they just TRed the route and cleaned on the way up. Cool that this is the accepted practice at your area. Last time I was at Equinox (*gasp* I mentioned it online) I noticed some pretty worn lower off biners, definitely not all steel, and used my own draws to lower off if someone else was climbing (as did the others I was climbing with) the route after me. TRing off the shuts is just a little bit safer? pulling up some slack, dropping it through the shuts and saying 'take' and cleaning the draws...doesn't seem that dangerous to me.
I clearly said steel didn't I? we don't TR of the aluminum biners at Nason either, but areas like Nvermind or World Wall its perfectly acceptable. They are definitely put in for convenience for the most part and making things a bit safer like I said, just like permadraws are largely for convenience, and only a bit of actual increase in safety. But that's kinda the point, the developers are putting them there to be used in that way, and I've seen them do the same. Again, its meant to be used and wear is assumed to occur.
Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
csproul wrote:I merely mentioned that it is not terribly uncommon to see people TR off of the Mussy hooks there after the 1st person leads the route (there is no top access for the most part). I still don't know that it is "acceptable"
Never climbed off Mussy hooks myself, but from what I hear, the express purpose of Mussy hooks is for lowering. If they didn't want you to lower off the anchor they wouldn't have used Mussy hooks. Supposedly, anyway.

M Sprague wrote:Aluminum rings are crap and basically only excusable in some kind of alpine or similar situation IMO (why not use biners, stronger and more useful to carry for emergencies?)
If it's a very wet environment, can't the stainless steel still corrode?
redlude97 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 5
Patrick Shyvers wrote: If it's a very wet environment, can't the stainless steel still corrode?
yes but so can aluminum
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Patrick Shyvers wrote: Never climbed off Mussy hooks myself, but from what I hear, the express purpose of Mussy hooks is for lowering. If they didn't want you to lower off the anchor they wouldn't have used Mussy hooks. Supposedly, anyway. If it's a very wet environment, can't the stainless steel still corrode?
Yes, I can't imagine anyone would ever install Mussy's and expect people to rap. They have a gate so it is super easy to drop the rope in and lower. TRing is a different matter.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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